Attack Speed Theory. Short term gain, long term loss?

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Tarion

Senior Member

01-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilisk9466 View Post
I've never actually used SotD. Anyone know what the cooldown on the active is?
40 seconds.

EDIT: OK, I officially have no idea how attack speed works. Been messing with it and I just don't get it. Anyone explain/worked out how much attack speed to get to reach the cap late game?


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h4rdcor3

Senior Member

01-06-2010

Another thing to note when playing a ranged DPS is that you cannot fire another projectile until the previous has hit your target so projectile speed matters a lot. Take someone like Ashe, at 600 range their is almost no difference between an AS of 1.7 and 2.5. If you are closer to your target then you will attack faster because of the travel time of the arrow. Adding frost shot slows your projectile down so your dps will drop even further and make AS even less important.

Tristana has a fairly high projectile speed so she does benefit from higher AS more than most ranged dps and i believe that Twitch bypasses this mechanic entirely because of the way his ult works.

I usually aim for an AS between 1.5-1.7 on ranged dps and then start stacking dmg. I forget what the threshold is but around that time getting more dmg is better than more AS


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Basilisk9466

Senior Member

01-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarion View Post
40 seconds.

EDIT: OK, I officially have no idea how attack speed works. Been messing with it and I just don't get it. Anyone explain/worked out how much attack speed to get to reach the cap late game?
Simple. Attack speed items act as a multiplier for your base attack speed.

This has several consequences, which are best explained by comparing Teemo and Alistar.

At lvl 18, Teemo has a base attack speed (before items) of 1.072 attacks/s. Regardless of who you are, you hardcap at 2.5 attacks/s. Thus:

2.5/1.072 = 2.33

Take away 1 from that to get 1.33, or 133%. You take out the one because that's your base attack speed. So in other words, 2.5 attacks/s is an increase of 133% over your base attack speed, so if you have items, runes and masteries adding up to 133%, you hit maximum. So Teemo gets maximum attack speed by getting, for example, Bloodrazor (40%), Malady (50%), Berserker Greaves (25%), and runes and masteries to a value of 18%. 1.072*(1+0.4+0.5+0.25+0.18) = 2.5

Alistar, by comparison, has a base attack speed at lvl 18 of 0.645.

2.5/0.645 = 3.88

Subtract 1, we get a total of 288% - utterly impractical. This is why building Alistar with any kind of item that needs a lot of hits (Malady, Wit's End, Bloodrazor, Black Cleaver) to be at their best is kind of a waste. You should only build AS items on champs with a high base attack speed. If, for some reason, you did want to get Alistar to 2.5 attacks/s, you'd quite possibly have to spec out on runes and masteries, and most likely still devote five or six specialised items to it.


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Tarion

Senior Member

01-06-2010

I understand the general theory, or thought I did. What I don't get is why its not working out for me :P

Level 18 Tristana (0.992 attack speed. Got the odd attack speed rune due to messing with the combiner :P ) with Greaves and SotD. +55% and +25% attack speed. At 18 my attack speed is 1.517 (including items) boosting to 2.108 with Rapid Fire. I build another Recurve, and it puts me to 1.780, which is 2.370 with Rapid Fire. Another dagger puts me to 1.870 or 2.468 with Rapid Fire. A final dagger puts me to 1.976, and I hit the cap with Rapid Fire.

Now, that is
+55%, +25%, +40%, +15%, +15%, and I still need rapid fire to hit it.

These numbers are all taken from the game. So, am I missing a step in my mathematics?


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Basilisk9466

Senior Member

01-06-2010

Tristana... should have a base attack speed of 1.013 at 18, not sure how you've got 0.992 <_<

I've no idea what's going on there. You have 170% there, which puts you over the hardcap without Rapid Fire. http://leaguecraft.com/builder/Trist...c5a0487059c311 says the same.

Sounds like you hit a bug?


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Tarion

Senior Member

01-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilisk9466 View Post
Tristana... should have a base attack speed of 1.013 at 18, not sure how you've got 0.992 <_<

I've no idea what's going on there. You have 170% there, which puts you over the hardcap without Rapid Fire. http://leaguecraft.com/builder/Trist...c5a0487059c311 says the same.

Sounds like you hit a bug?
Read the other thread. Looks like you use base speed, not base speed + levelling bonus. With that, it all works out.

Leaguecraft appears to have made the same mistake.

EDIT: Well, with that in mind, my thread is redundant. It actually takes quite a bit to hit max attack speed, even with Rapid Fire.

I seem to remember attack speed runes capping at 10%. Does anyone know if that's still the case?


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Ferretanica

Member

01-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarion View Post
Hey all. Been looking at some theorycrafting for Tristana builds. I was considering a Red runes: ArPen, Blue/Yellow: Atck. Speed, with an early Sword of the Divine.

However, I'm not sure if that's worth it, because late game with rank 5 Rapid Fire you'll be hitting well beyond the max attack speed cap, as far as I can tell. That seems hugely wasted.

Is that a reason attack speed runes don't see as much play?

Essentially, it comes down to boosting your early game at the potential expense of your late game. Is this worth more than Crit Chance runes that would be helpful all the way through? And would this be the same for any character with a serious attack speed buff?

EDIT: Some more details, because I realised this is a bit sparse. Was going to go for a Sword of the Divine, Berserkers Greaves early game. But, with Rapid Fire that puts her over the cap at 18, provided you've runed attack speed. Obviously, the initial plan was to get more SotD procs, but I'm not sure if that's worth the wasted items late game.

EDIT again: I could be missing something about how attack speed works, as an FYI. I hear that its not reliably down anywhere, so my numbers could be wrong :/
Even if your info is wrong, the situation you propose is similar to stacking flat mp5 runes. I do it because I main support heroes (Mostly Kayle, but I play Morgana and DPS Janna). The way I see it, the boost early game more than makes up for late game. Now, seeing as mana is vital for casters, our situations may not be as similar as I think, but overall, I'd say it's roughly the same concept.


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Tarion

Senior Member

01-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretanica View Post
Even if your info is wrong, the situation you propose is similar to stacking flat mp5 runes. I do it because I main support heroes (Mostly Kayle, but I play Morgana and DPS Janna). The way I see it, the boost early game more than makes up for late game. Now, seeing as mana is vital for casters, our situations may not be as similar as I think, but overall, I'd say it's roughly the same concept.
Its similar, but the fear was that it would actually be useless later on. Flat mp5 is still useful later, its just that its usefulness drops.


Anyway, theorycraft build for Tristana:

Spells: Exhaust/Flash
Masteries: 9/0/21 or 21/0/9

Build: WEEQER to start. From there, R>E>Q=W(In other words, always take R if available, then E. If neither is available, alternate between Q and W).

Runes: Red ArPen Blue Attack Speed, 7 Yellow Attack speed, 2 Quint attack speed, 1 Quint ArPen.

Items: Doran's Blade to start (New Doran's, with lifesteal. Based on next patch)
Boots
Sword of the Divine
Upgrade Boots to Greaves
BFSword -> Cleaver
Bloodrazor

That hits max attack speed, but I just don't know how good it would be. Its hitting for 62.5 damage + ~10% of their max health per second in magic damage, plus ~500 physical dps before crits.

I'm not wrong in assuming that you'll rarely find someone with enough armour to block any of that damage?

Now, its not the hardest hitting build in the world, I'm sure. But it does have answers to everything. You can't dodge, health or armour stack against it, and M.Res only cuts some of the damage. The scariest thing would be an M.Res stacked Cho'Gath I suppose.

I'm worried that the build is trying to do too much fancy stuff with the attack speed stacking and should just focus on damage.

So, yeah. Thoughts?

EDIT: Oh yeah, my worry is that it doesn't have enough early game ganking power, before the Cleaver. Easy option would be to substitute the BF sword in fairly early. Maybe go
Dorans
Recurve
Boots
BF
Finish SotD
Finish Greaves
Finish Cleaver.

Seems a bit messy though.


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