REMOVE Mana from items that aren't caster oriented.

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Drakantus

Senior Member

01-08-2010

It's very simple, the responses keep ignoring my real argument: physical dps classes can take items that ONLY increae damage, there is no point where they are forced to take extra armor or hp or mana or other stats they don't need in order to increae damage. AP based classes don't have this option. All I want is to open some additional options.

Personally, when I play annie or any other caster, after my first 2-3 items (focused on AP, but contain a lot of mana or mana regen because I have no choice), I have plenty of mana. I don't need more, yet i'm basically forced to take more because the items with AP but no mana are extremely limited, focused on other characters, or have unique abilities which make it non-viable to stack multiples.

I hear the responses about how annie "always needs more mana", and I don't want to sound like a jerk but if you are honestly having trouble with mana adfter making a deathfire grasp and staff of the ages I really have to question what elo bracket you are in, because when I play a caster and put out tons of burst damage my opponents focus me as a priority and it would be a freaking miracle if I ever ran out of mana before I had to recall to base to heal. If your results vary, congratulations on having terrible opponents but I don't think caster items should be balanced on the assumption that your opponents are terrible.

All I want are more options. Those of you that say no amount of mana is too much, you are simply wrong. Beyond a certain point many champions don't need any more mana. Adding options so these champions can still increase their AP or -cooldowns or whatever WITHOUT adding mana would make the game more interesting, fun, and would make itemization decisions more skill based. Aren't those positive changes?

For those who say this would make the mana-less heros OP: are you trolling or what? When is the last time you saw a mundo or trynd make a catalyst? NEVER, not in a real game. maybe as a joke, or maybe back in the newbie level elo you made one before you knew better, but serious players don't make inferior items. As such, there is no rebalancing needed if these items were changed, because those champions don't make these items.


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WhitemageofDOOM

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakantus View Post
AP based classes don't have this option. All I want is to open some additional options.
AP based classes have all of two stats if you cut out mana. One of those is easy to cap. So basically your asking for tons of items with nothing but AP.

Quote:
Personally, when I play annie or any other caster, after my first 2-3 items (focused on AP, but contain a lot of mana or mana regen because I have no choice)
Of course if mana only showed up on dedicated mana items you wouldn't have enough mana unless you bought one.
Also if you have more than 2-3 non-boot items your games are going too long.

Quote:
because when I play a caster and put out tons of burst damage my opponents focus me as a priority and it would be a freaking miracle if I ever ran out of mana before I had to recall to base to heal. If your results vary, congratulations on having terrible opponents
Don't get close enough to your enemy, and/or buy more hp.

Quote:
All I want are more options. Those of you that say no amount of mana is too much, you are simply wrong. Beyond a certain point many champions don't need any more mana. Adding options so these champions can still increase their AP or -cooldowns or whatever WITHOUT adding mana would make the game more interesting, fun, and would make itemization decisions more skill based. Aren't those positive changes?
No, because you want reduces the number of viable options. As you said you need 2-3 caster items before the saturation point, so only the items that keep mana on them would still be good first and second pick items, the two most important picks mind you. This would greatly reduce the number of real caster builds signifgantly since every caster has to get early mana items just to keep from going oom.

Adding content without thinking about it's impact is far far far more likely to restrict options than create them.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakantus View Post
It's very simple, the responses keep ignoring my real argument: physical dps classes can take items that ONLY increae damage, there is no point where they are forced to take extra armor or hp or mana or other stats they don't need in order to increae damage. AP based classes don't have this option. All I want is to open some additional options.
No one is ignoring your argument, your argument is inherently flawed by disregarding how AP based champions require mana to function, its a terrible theorycraft argument.

If physical damage champions required armor or health or mana to auto attack, they would have to take those stats just the same as AP takes mana currently. Because they don't, their items don't include those stats. Because AP does, their items include those stats. I can't make the words smaller to make the facts simpler. A flawed argument will always be lacking.

And actually, if you want to be exact, there are definitely options available that don't give you mana. Mejai's, Rylai's, Abysmal, Deathfire. There are four, add boots, and take a pick of a lower tier item or one of the mana items you claim you already take and you can have your incredibly low mana item build if you really wanted. (EDIT: Best bet are those four items, plus Haunting Guise, and Sorc Boots if you actually want to try the non existent mana build).

The option does exist, you just have to know the items, but doesn't work very well.

But asking for duplicates of existing items because you don't want to pay for a stat that your champion uses? That is purely ludicrous.

___


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Drakantus

Senior Member

01-11-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
No one is ignoring your argument, your argument is inherently flawed by disregarding how AP based champions require mana to function, its a terrible theorycraft argument.
Unlike physical DPS that require HP to function?

Everyone requires HP, but everyone doesn't need EXTRA hp on every single item they buy.

Nearly everyone needs mana too, but everyone doesn't need EXTRA mana on every single item they buy- except if you want an AP item, you are basically forced to take extra mana or mana regen even if you don't want it- while physical dps are free to take dps items as they please without ever being forced to take hp or hp regen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
And actually, if you want to be exact, there are definitely options available that don't give you mana. Mejai's, Rylai's, Abysmal, Deathfire. There are four, add boots, and take a pick of a lower tier item or one of the mana items you claim you already take and you can have your incredibly low mana item build if you really wanted. (EDIT: Best bet are those four items, plus Haunting Guise, and Sorc Boots if you actually want to try the non existent mana build).
You should read my posts before you make terrible arguments that have already been addressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakantus View Post
I don't need more, yet i'm basically forced to take more because the items with AP but no mana are extremely limited, focused on other characters, or have unique abilities which make it non-viable to stack multiples.
Abyssal scepter- non stacking unique passive, also contains a ton of magic resist, not a pure dps item. Mejai's- bad item in general, there have been dozens of threads- basically a neet loss if you don't get 10+ charges fast, and if you do get 10+ charges you are winning anyway so the bonus becomes less useful. Deathfire- non-stacking unique ability plus mana regen, this is an item i specifically suggested be changed, perhaps you should read my posts before replying to me. Rylia- yeah okay trade mana for hp. Slightly more useful endgame but it's still not a dps stat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
But asking for duplicates of existing items because you don't want to pay for a stat that your champion uses? That is purely ludicrous.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous to ask that ability based champions have a viable method to advance in damage without paying for unneeded stats. Especially when virtually everyone agrees that physical carries out-scale magic carries by 4X or more. Let me guess, is your main trynd, yi, twitch, or ashe? Late game casters are weak. They can't backdoor, and their damage NEVER reaches the ridiculous levels of physical dps that can put out 1000 damage per autoattack multiple times per second. This hypothetical itemization would just be a drop in the bucket towards making casters more viable late game, but every little bit helps.


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Drakantus

Senior Member

01-11-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitemageofDOOM View Post
AP based classes have all of two stats if you cut out mana. One of those is easy to cap. So basically your asking for tons of items with nothing but AP.

Pretty much. Don't blame me if the basic game engine is flawed in such a way that physical dps have multiple dps stats while magic dps only have one. Nevertheless, if physical dps can get pure dps items casters should have the same options, if the only way to do so is create items with pure AP, so be it.