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REMOVE Mana from items that aren't caster oriented.

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Navoc

Member

01-06-2010

To the OP,

While the items in question aren't great for the non-mana using characters, Mana users LOVE the extra mana. In all reality, can you really have to much mana? (Possible solution, create an Atma's Insighter, which adds 2% of your max mana as damage).

I normally play Taric, and I for one love that things like the Veil and Frozen heart have so much mana. I focus my character around building a large mana and HP pool so I can continually run my ult in late game team fights. Without the mana on these items, I would have to sacrifice my tankiness and survivability for AP/Mana items. While it sounds nice in theory (stronger spells and heals), I'm soft, and if get focused will die. With over 100 armor/MR, and well over 2.5k hp, I can tank a turret (no minions), with 2 champions for a solid 10 seconds, giving us PLENTY of time to knock down the turret with our teams focused DPS.

It would absolutely SUCK if they removed the mana from these items.


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Tetrall Mors

Senior Member

01-06-2010

*sarcasm post*

yah - moy trymadere barbarian guy wants cheeper gear like da frzen hert but wid 500 attack pwr isn't of da mana preeese!

*normal post*

this would be a huge boost to mana-less characters and a huge nerf to hybrids. Manaless already have an advantage by being able to avoid mana costs and being able to stack good gear outside of mana. If you like an item with mana on it, but your worried about the cost issues, it might still be good even with the mana.

Anyways mana belongs on the items that it is on.


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Drakantus

Senior Member

01-06-2010

Quote:
Navoc:
To the OP,

While the items in question aren't great for the non-mana using characters, Mana users LOVE the extra mana. In all reality, can you really have to much mana? (Possible solution, create an Atma's Insighter, which adds 2% of your max mana as damage).


Can you have too much mana? No. But would you rather have almost any other stat, once you have enough mana? Yes. It's like throwing hp on dps items. Does the carry hate gaining hp? Not at all, but those hit points on phage, for example, come at a cost of reduced dps stats and you don't gain as much dps if you made a more dedicated pure dps item without hp. The same is true with mana and mana regen- sure you might like the mana, it's theoretically useful, but you would be a lot better off with items that were more focused in stats and didn't force you take mana on every single item you pick up.

However, since this idea has been opposed so strongly, I propose a simplier change: simply add 4 new items to fill this gap. One item with a lot of AP and some magic penetration but no stats wasted on mana or mana regen. Another item with magic resistance and the same passive as banshees veil with no mana or mana regen. And a third item, an item with a lot of AP and high -cooldown unique passive and the ability from deathfire grasp, without the mana regen. And a new weapon, similiar to sheen or lichbane, with a lot of ability power, a proc on ability use to increase your next attack by 200%, some +damage, and NO mana or mana regen.

I suppose this has an added advantage, in which the skilled players who pick the correct items will be rewarded with more damage while the noobs who pick mana items instead will lose more often, so that is good.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

01-06-2010

Why make new items, that are covered by existing items? If the entire reasoning is that you want items to fit an exact perception of every champion, then you're definitely insane.

Quote:
TiV3:
Because it's so hard to get golem buff as nuker. A good MP base isn't bad for that though. But a RoA and an extra catalyst are perfectly sufficient for that.

Edit: even without golem buff I'd prefer only 2 MP items over any kind of silly mp regen.


Thanks... for agreeing? I was responding to the person who said Annie has more than enough mana that is needed, which at level 18 is less than 1200 base. Drakantus or whoever said that Annie had enough without mana items, which is comical at best.

So yes, with an RoA and another mana item like an additional Catalyst, Annie has enough. Without mana items, she needs a ton of regen to keep spamming.


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Zohariel

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Drakantus:
Can you have too much mana? No. But would you rather have almost any other stat, once you have enough mana? Yes. It's like throwing hp on dps items. Does the carry hate gaining hp? Not at all, but those hit points on phage, for example, come at a cost of reduced dps stats and you don't gain as much dps if you made a more dedicated pure dps item without hp. The same is true with mana and mana regen- sure you might like the mana, it's theoretically useful, but you would be a lot better off with items that were more focused in stats and didn't force you take mana on every single item you pick up.

Sheen and Phage are worth the ~ 1300 gold they cost for their procs alone. While you're building them early game, the components are also just handy to have. Lots of characters start with Ruby or Sapphire Crystals, enjoy the health/mana they provide while laning, then build Sheen and Phage and go from there. Same with Banshee's. Catalyst is a **** good laning item on some characters which also just happens to build into a good defensive item. LoL isn't just about late game.

Quote:
Drakantus:
item suggestions

In order: Abyssal Sceptre and Void Staff both have AP and magic pen on very good items which would be worth it even without the MR and mana; Banshee's Veil is useful in part because you can build it from that Catalyst that's been propping you up all game and even if you get it later, the mana you're paying for is only 14% of the total cost; and Deathfire Grasp was brought into the game specifically to help casters, who benefit from all it's stats.

tl;dr - If you enter late game with more mana than you use, then sell your mana regen and buy a Zhonya's. Problem solved.


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ERazER

Senior Member

01-07-2010

As the other posters agreed not enough items have mana. I suggest all items to have mana and mana regen added to them so they can be super cost effective and versatile and usefull!


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Kingkalif

Member

01-07-2010

I disagree with removing mana from items. Except for the 3 without mana heroes, all champions need mana for sure. As Rammus and Malphite (Tank), I buy Glacial shroud early in the game and especially for the +500 mana. If I want to farm creeps or put pressure on the opponents, I need alot of mana.

There is still items without mana for people who don't like it but a hero without mana can basicaly only hit with his auto-attack and I don't think that's the way to play this game.


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
I've played them all. Annie needing mana, is this some sort of joke? Unless you are in a team fight you just last hit with disintegrate and spend basically no mana, in a team fight you spam a few spells fast but if you actually have time to run oom it pretty much means you won. I usually build 1 rod of the ages first and it is more than enough mana, yet due to lack of options I usually have to make a second, maybe a banshee veil maybe a zhonya's ring, and in the end i'll have about 1500 more mana than i ever use.
If you're laning that long as Annie, then you're not really playing her right. Between ganks mid game she DOES oom and pretty fast, and it's dumb to sit on your Q in a fight against enemy champs.

Quote:
Ashe with catalyst first? What does that have to do with this topic? I am not talknig about changing catalyst in any way, that would be unchanged.
So a champion building a BV from Catalyst is going to LOSE mana from upgrading?

Quote:
Alistar, you joking? 1 innervating locket is usually enough, a chalice of harmony if you need more mana.
Yet, he wouldn't need that Chalice if another item were around to give him mana.


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Solus

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Drakantus:
Karthus, are you joking? As a side effect of defile he regens a ton of mana passively, beyond the normal 1 rod of the ages he doesn't need any more mana items.


And with that any credibility this guy had goes RIGHT out the window. I get Archangel's, Rod of Ages, Zhonya's and I'm -still- hurting for the golem buff. Why? Because you've got a long ****in' range nuke that's great during the 5v5 "lane dance" where both teams are waiting for the other to slip up. If you're not trying to get as many shots in as you can, as fast as you can, you're not playing Karthus right.

Also, you can easily go completely oom in a team fight with defile rolling. I agree that EVENTUALLY mana becomes more or less a non-issue, but you're basically asking for an indirect buff to champions who don't need them. The game is BALANCED around the fact that Frozen Heart gives 500 mana, or Sheen gives 200. If they changed that, they'd simply have to nerf/buff a plethora of champions to "adjust" them back down to what they originally were.

So congrats, you'd get your super awesome mana-less frozen heart...At the expense of either your base stats, your abilities, or your stat gain.


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Tetrall Mors

Senior Member

01-07-2010

How about we just remove manaless characters from the game? Give everyone mana bars and have auto attacks cost 5% of the attack damage in mana points?

Would solve this thread issue in a hearbeat.