My Janna

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PosPosPos

Senior Member

01-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exantius View Post
Disagree.

Janna still stands out from true carries because even with full DPS items, she still has an AoE stun, a single target snare, fast movement speed, and an AoE knockback.

Rather, Janna plays the DPS role just as well as Ashe. Which is to say, not too impressive compared to hard carries like Twitch, but enough to be a threat.

Just because the a certain champion ahs abilities that seem to push them towards a certain playstyle doesn't mean it's the only way to go. It's not much different from saying that any non hybrid Malphite build is wasting either his built in Tiamat or his armor scaling AoE.
I would kindly request you didn't twist my wording. I already pointed out that each champion has many different ways to be played. However, I also pointed out that there are certain builds for champions that are more optimal than the rest.

While you spec yourself to be a carry, you ignore the existence of other carries that have much more potential to be the role they were designed for in your team. Perhaps you fail to see that placing EotS on them, while focusing on keeping the enemy team within range of your carry, would be better for the team than gimping yourself by doing two things at once?

As I have said, you can play Ashe(I think I got her to 5k health) as a tank, no problem, you can play Karthus(yes, I did that for lols, 17 kills, no less) as a carry(with lich bane) who can snare his prey, go up close thanks to dual Phantom Dancers to inflict DoT in conjunction with his Lay Waste, then finish foes that run away with his map range AoE.

All these are fun, and surprisingly effective playstyles, but certainly not bringing out the best a champion can be.


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Polygon

Member

01-06-2010

On Janna, Cool Down Reduction is the best value for money to do more damage with her.

Its also the best way to get most value out of your shield, as you will be able to refresh it more often, effectively "standing in" for your low hps.

But if you are right next to a "real" carry thats all kitted out... then you really should use the shield on them, not yourself.


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Exantius

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Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
I would kindly request you didn't twist my wording. I already pointed out that each champion has many different ways to be played. However, I also pointed out that there are certain builds for champions that are more optimal than the rest.

While you spec yourself to be a carry, you ignore the existence of other carries that have much more potential to be the role they were designed for in your team. Perhaps you fail to see that placing EotS on them, while focusing on keeping the enemy team within range of your carry, would be better for the team than gimping yourself by doing two things at once?
It's not so much I'm trying to argue that Janna can carry so much as I would argue that building her entirely as support is wasting the potential of her diverse abilities. She has support abilities that synergize with damage. She'll never be a carry, but simple extra damage can outweigh the utility of stronger support abilities at times.

How should I state this; item choice doesn't dictate playstyle. Janna just doesn't benefit enough from AP or CDR to justify it over flat damage, but going damage item doesn't mean Janna is trying to fill the role of a Carry. She's still support.

AP Build emphasize a sturdier shield and a bigger heal with Monsoon. The shield gains about 150 extra health, which is about the worth of maybe 300 gold for your carry. Monsoon being a bigger heal is nice, but I would define the ultimate as being more important due to the knockback, and regardless heals are shut down by the too common executioner's calling nowadays. If it ever becomes a huge threat, then they'll just stun you out of your ult anyways, and if you've spent your gold getting AP, you won't have a banshee's veil to at least make them have to try for it.

CDR just means more Shields and more Tornados per fight. This one is a bit hard to weigh since you have to consider timing. A second shield coming up when your carry is one nuke from death is HUGE, but at the same time having another shield up after the fight is already decided is worthless. A downside to a full CDR build is that the items just don't really work on Janna. Frozen Heart encourages being where Janna does not want to be, whereas Spirit Visage/Haunting Guise/Deathfire aren't too great. Soul Shroud is the only huge CDR item I can think of that works (Nashor's too, but that actually fits under a DPS build)

An interesting trend I've noticed about playing Janna is that unless you mess up with positioning, you're rarely focused. She excels at kiting after all, with fast movement speed that rivals that of pirate/Zilean. As such, you actually have the ability to sit still and autoattack for a good portion of fights, so why not make it sting a bit more?

"Wait, but if you're using shield on your carry regardless, then you're not synergizing the entire attack speed with shield damage bonus!"

DPS builds focus on having a sturdy early game. You take full advantage of fast movement speed, having an early game snare, the ability to tower dive... monsoon allowing you to take risks or alternately pushing people away from their tower or into yours. Help your carry get an extra kills or two early on and when team fights come, an unbuffed shield still does a significant amount. Alternately you have one of the stronger laning phases in the game and you can deny their carry of gold.

AP build just really can't compete. Tornado adds an interesting strength in laning, but killing off their creep wave and farming a lot doesn't neccessarily mean a strong lane control. No shield means your tower diving ability is considerably less. No zeph means you're slower and they're not slowed. You kill creeps, but personally I've never found it too hard to last hit near my tower. You miss maybe one kill per wave, but DPS Janna can make you get ONLY one kill per wave.

And as for support items, you can always get Stark's. There aren't many melee heroes that seem to run it anymore (Executioner's seems to be better for lifesteal and Last Whisper for Armor Penetration, and tanks need tanky items) anyways.


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PineappleThis

Senior Member

01-07-2010

I play DPS Janna quite a bit, and its really fun. I justify it by saying that i'm a support dps. I'm not intending to carry the team, but i'm a big enough threat to be feared and deal that extra damage, so if the carry does die I am still capable of getting some kills. But in all honestly, i just find it fun and a change of pace, regardless if its the most effective way to build her or most helpful to the team.


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Patyrn

Senior Member

01-07-2010

Quote:
Playing Janna as a DPS is like playing Ashe as a tank, sure, you can make both of them viable, but definitely not the best at what they can do.
Actually the only way to play janna is physical. She's garbage for casting. Shield is a rather hefty static damage buff so AS \ Crit work great with her. She has an AOE stun and a spammable slow. Actually she's the ONLY ranged carry capable character with a stun and it's AOE no less.


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fortis

Member

01-07-2010

I know you probably don't care, but ill tell you how i play Janna -
First Spell Q
Max zeypher
Max sheild second priority
Always max ult 6 11 16
Max Tornado Last.

Rush Mercs / Sorc boots
Always get banshees veil
Always get wards.

My reasoning - Janna is a great support hero who doesnt need alot of items to own. With flash and heal, she can escape most situations. Level 1 in tornado is great because its a quick disable with low damage. Actually most of the time except really early game youll be wanting to double tap Q to get a quick disable off. Warding is important in games, and why make carries buy wards? Janna can get an archangels second, or an ageis, whatever you find your team needs. important items for janna are Boots, banshees veil, wards. end of story. Flame away.


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PosPosPos

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exantius View Post
It's not so much I'm trying to argue that Janna can carry so much as I would argue that building her entirely as support is wasting the potential of her diverse abilities. She has support abilities that synergize with damage. She'll never be a carry, but simple extra damage can outweigh the utility of stronger support abilities at times.

How should I state this; item choice doesn't dictate playstyle. Janna just doesn't benefit enough from AP or CDR to justify it over flat damage, but going damage item doesn't mean Janna is trying to fill the role of a Carry. She's still support.

AP Build emphasize a sturdier shield and a bigger heal with Monsoon. The shield gains about 150 extra health, which is about the worth of maybe 300 gold for your carry. Monsoon being a bigger heal is nice, but I would define the ultimate as being more important due to the knockback, and regardless heals are shut down by the too common executioner's calling nowadays. If it ever becomes a huge threat, then they'll just stun you out of your ult anyways, and if you've spent your gold getting AP, you won't have a banshee's veil to at least make them have to try for it.

CDR just means more Shields and more Tornados per fight. This one is a bit hard to weigh since you have to consider timing. A second shield coming up when your carry is one nuke from death is HUGE, but at the same time having another shield up after the fight is already decided is worthless. A downside to a full CDR build is that the items just don't really work on Janna. Frozen Heart encourages being where Janna does not want to be, whereas Spirit Visage/Haunting Guise/Deathfire aren't too great. Soul Shroud is the only huge CDR item I can think of that works (Nashor's too, but that actually fits under a DPS build)

An interesting trend I've noticed about playing Janna is that unless you mess up with positioning, you're rarely focused. She excels at kiting after all, with fast movement speed that rivals that of pirate/Zilean. As such, you actually have the ability to sit still and autoattack for a good portion of fights, so why not make it sting a bit more?

"Wait, but if you're using shield on your carry regardless, then you're not synergizing the entire attack speed with shield damage bonus!"

DPS builds focus on having a sturdy early game. You take full advantage of fast movement speed, having an early game snare, the ability to tower dive... monsoon allowing you to take risks or alternately pushing people away from their tower or into yours. Help your carry get an extra kills or two early on and when team fights come, an unbuffed shield still does a significant amount. Alternately you have one of the stronger laning phases in the game and you can deny their carry of gold.

AP build just really can't compete. Tornado adds an interesting strength in laning, but killing off their creep wave and farming a lot doesn't neccessarily mean a strong lane control. No shield means your tower diving ability is considerably less. No zeph means you're slower and they're not slowed. You kill creeps, but personally I've never found it too hard to last hit near my tower. You miss maybe one kill per wave, but DPS Janna can make you get ONLY one kill per wave.

And as for support items, you can always get Stark's. There aren't many melee heroes that seem to run it anymore (Executioner's seems to be better for lifesteal and Last Whisper for Armor Penetration, and tanks need tanky items) anyways.
Your argument against CDR Jannas is that they need a lot of timing. That's not a drawback - that's a requirement. If you play well, you get rewarded for it. If you time HG well, you are rewarded for it. During teamfights, HG is the number one skill for disruption and opening fights, and getting 2-3 champions hit by it usually spells a wipe for their team.

Executioner's calling is a valid counter, however, that is when you weigh having to channel the full duration or not, and when and where to use it.

AP builds do a significant amount of damage with spells early game as well, you make it up with more powerful spells trading off a small amount of attack damage. An unbuffed shield breaks easily, and during a teamfight, you don't have the pleasure of slapping it on a target that isn't going to get hit. Also, whoever said AP builds don't spec into zephyr early? If you don't have 2-3 points at the least into it by level 10, you shouldn't really comment on an AP build because you don't have a solid understanding of the build.

AP builds tower dive more effectively; with a stronger shield, you don't break until 2-3 hits from the tower. Farming a lot means you have access to better items. You harrass by releasing gale earlier than usual, spam zephyr because it scales well with AP, or shield up and autoattack.

For support items, Aegis of the Legion still provides significant benefits. Adds your precious damage too if you think that autoattacking makes a good Janna.

P.S AP builds don't only pump HG. They can't and won't. Can't being the game prevents you from adding the same level consecutively at the start. Which means that by lvl 5, you should have 1-2 points in HG, 1-2 points in zephyr, and 1-3 points in EotS depending on how defensive or offensive the user is. Even if the game allows consecutive speccing, adding HG all the way to lvl 5 will just mean that you are -useless- for the cooldown of HG.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Combat Janna is the way to go, ask Agip33 who has played her almost exclusively for 300 wins


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

01-08-2010

You're all doing it wrong to one extent or another.

There's seriously 1 best core item on her, and it's pretty obvious when you think about it.


Remember, she's not a Teemo. Quit trying to stick a Malady on her. That's not how she maintains 100% hp.


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Polygon

Member

01-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
You're all doing it wrong to one extent or another.

There's seriously 1 best core item on her, and it's pretty obvious when you think about it.


Remember, she's not a Teemo. Quit trying to stick a Malady on her. That's not how she maintains 100% hp.
I'm actually dying to hear your suggestion. :-P

But I'd point out that the way i keep at 100% hp is by being the fastest moving champ on the board. Boots of Speed 4 the win.