Need help? A guide to ELO and ways to improve your rating.

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Putzfrau

Senior Member

01-12-2011

onisake, do you play ranked games? are you a 1475-1800 player?

the OP has said time and time again this is the basics. you instill the idea that to get better you need to be more knowledgeable. this thread promotes that. it deters people from thinking pure time spent or just grinding your face into the game is going to make you better. these basics are what lead the player to the things onisake talked about. and really there's no cut off of when this knowledge should be gained. you say its too easy, too simplistic, but do all level 30's know this stuff? you'd hope so, but i'd put my money on no. do most 1400 level players know stuff like this? most likely yes, but they might learn something new, enjoy the discussion, or not even read it.

perhaps, technically, it doesnt belong in this forum, but that would also be assuming only competitive players visit this specific forum, and they dont. many low elo/low level players probably visit this forum wondering if they should take it to the next level, and a thread like this gives them the basics so they can then fish out more knowledge for themsleves. things like this are very popular on WOW forums, which i played for a very long time at a high level (world top 50 muru kill, on top of killing everything in the game up till cata in a reasonable time). things like this werent so popular on a thread like elitistjerks, a wow forum that was considered "next level" knowledge. it was moderated heavily and had a large community (until it got ruined) of very math oriented and theoretical looks at different classes, and lets face it, the lol forums are never gonna be the best place to find really high level discussion bout the game. these things are generally found outside the "official" game forums. it doesnt even appear like true high level competitive players regularly post on this forum at all.

regardless, if your whole argument is this thread should be moved to general forums, you certainly have a long winded way of saying it. but maybe just for clarity the op should rename the title to express the "basic'" principle he added in later comments.


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Onisake

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Putzfrau View Post
onisake, do you play ranked games? are you a 1475-1800 player?

the OP has said time and time again this is the basics. you instill the idea that to get better you need to be more knowledgeable. this thread promotes that. it deters people from thinking pure time spent or just grinding your face into the game is going to make you better. these basics are what lead the player to the things onisake talked about. and really there's no cut off of when this knowledge should be gained. you say its too easy, too simplistic, but do all level 30's know this stuff? you'd hope so, but i'd put my money on no. do most 1400 level players know stuff like this? most likely yes, but they might learn something new, enjoy the discussion, or not even read it.

perhaps, technically, it doesnt belong in this forum, but that would also be assuming only competitive players visit this specific forum, and they dont. many low elo/low level players probably visit this forum wondering if they should take it to the next level, and a thread like this gives them the basics so they can then fish out more knowledge for themsleves. things like this are very popular on WOW forums, which i played for a very long time at a high level (world top 50 muru kill, on top of killing everything in the game up till cata in a reasonable time). things like this werent so popular on a thread like elitistjerks, a wow forum that was considered "next level" knowledge. it was moderated heavily and had a large community (until it got ruined) of very math oriented and theoretical looks at different classes, and lets face it, the lol forums are never gonna be the best place to find really high level discussion bout the game. these things are generally found outside the "official" game forums. it doesnt even appear like true high level competitive players regularly post on this forum at all.

regardless, if your whole argument is this thread should be moved to general forums, you certainly have a long winded way of saying it. but maybe just for clarity the op should rename the title to express the "basic'" principle he added in later comments.

short answer: no. i dont' actively play ranked. no, i'm not 1400+. i'm still in practice mode. my snap decision skills aren't at that level. and i'm not a summoner who excells at carrying. i'm a summoner that excels at support. but am i wrong? i'm a theory crafter. the only arguement you can really make is i'm a A-hole and you don't like me because of my approach. this is the internet: get over it.

long answer: I do solo ranked as practice for draft picking, and getting used to the difference in strategy and also to fish for new people to play with. i don't actively do ranked, largely because many of the people i play with ren't quite ready for it yet. i also hate to carry. and to be good in solo ranked: you must be a good carry. you MUST carry. and it's something i just don't like to do constantly because i like playing support and AP casters. the two archetypes that are the most difficult to carry with because they are the easiest to counter.

i work much better in teams where i have good carrys i can support. which falls into premade 5s. i excel when i'm with my core group. but there's lots of reasons we don't move into ranked. namely a lot of us aren't ready for it yet. some fundamentals, not listed by darkpsx, aren't quite grasped yet. those are the things i mentioned. this is a very good start. but it's largely incomplete. and while darkpsx claims to know that, he's done nothign to fix that. and i know many players who understand these concepts very well, but are not ready for ranked because of the things i mentioned that are missing.

if i were a 1500+ player, i wouldn't 'waste my time.' on this forum. i'd be on my team's forum/board talking with them. here, we get posts like Dark's which are largely incomplete and add nothing to my knowledge base. it's just not that high level. i'm pressuring dark to faciliate discussion. i want to know his opinion becausae he's higher rank than me. but if he's only a higher rank because he can carry. well: that doesnt' help anyone. i have my own opinion on the topics i brought up. if he doesn't then he's simply a good carry and it reinforces the stigma: you can't excel in ranked play unless you can carry.

in all honesty. if you read what darkpsx posted, and learned something form it while maintaining an ELO of 1500+. then...wow. i dont know what to say. you must be an autistic genius. i'd find it more believable if you knew it, just never put it into words. and can now grasp the concept you already knew more firmly. not 'learned something completely new.' he said it was the basics of competitive play. (or implied it) that's where i corrected him. it's not the basics of competitive play. it's the basics of play in general.

this isn't completley iappropriate for this board. it's just better suited on a different board. we are still talking about the competitive play. but it needs to be brought up a level. that was my point. i was berating about it. i was an ass about it. but if all i'd said was 'wrong board.' how seriously would i have been taken? i wanted to faciliate discussion. which i did. but darkpsx didn't take it to the next level. rather than take some advice, or prove me wrong, he chose a different path. that's his decision. i still think this needs to be expanded. it's a good start. it just needs to be finished. most tournaments i've seen are not blind pick. they are draft pick. which is a completely, completely different level of strategy right from the start.

so technically it does belong here. it's just more approrpiate for it to be somewhere else. it's up to him if he wants to move it. a red's not going to close it because it's not the wrong board for it. it's fine where it is. it's just not going to get the exposure it needs to thelp the people it needs to.

if he wants to help people who are strugling in 'elo hell' (sub 1200) there needs to be a lot more than what's he's pointed out. as someone who plays most of his ranked games sub 1200 i can say for a fact: the biggest problem these players have is not a misunderstanding of the basics darkpsx pointed out. it's they have no idea how to counter certain champions. they have no idea of the strategy behind draft pick. they have no idea how to adjust thier builds when they have certain champs on their team or/and when they are against certain other champs.

i've said it over and over: this is just the tip of the iceberg. it needs to be expanded.

as much as i absolutely hate to mention it: if you look at elementz tier lists between solo and arranged. they are different. why? new players aren't going to know that. some advanced players may not know that. it's those types of things that will bring people from lower play to mid-level play. and from mid-level play to high-level play.


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U Vlad Br0

Senior Member

01-12-2011

You are currently ranked 1588 elo. I don't understand why anyone would want to take the advice of a completely average player.


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Onisake

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by U Vlad Br0 View Post
You are currently ranked 1588 elo. I don't understand why anyone would want to take the advice of a completely average player.
1588 isn't average. we dont' have access to all of the ELO data. there are a large number of players 'un-ranked.' not to mention the hoardes of people who have only played 3 or 4 games and are ranked ~1200-1300. he's not 'grand master expert.' but he's certainly not average.

average is somewhere much lower. probably around 1100 or even 1k. there are lots of people, who are really, really bad at this game. you seem to havea misunderstanding of how ELO works. might i suggest you actually read what's here and learn something?

dark's post is geared towards people who are below average. (sub 1000) the target audience he wanted is average to above average wanting to get higher. (sub 1200)


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Earthstrike

Member

01-12-2011

Since people seem to be wanting to have a serious discussion here and the math of the current modified ELO system comes up a lot I just wanted to point out a few things. There's many things said that I want to respond to but I don't want to to make a "cookie cutter" post filled with partial quotes and responses. I'll start off with just one quote

"what newbies dont' know: you need to get good with a variety of high level champs. there are several roles you can play in a match.during champ select: i make a guess at who's going to win assuming equal skill level based on champs picked. i'm correct about 50% of the time. which isn't bad considering skill > items > champ."

Being correct 50% of the time when one of two teams will win a game means you are about as accurate at making predictions as a random number generator. In other words, its not very accurate at all. Theoretically, its impossible to have a prediction system less accurate than 50%. (That's because if its less than 50% then it's a good system at predicting the loser which means the inversion of the system is accurate more than 50% of the time).


Anyways this discussion seems to be centered around the notion about whether or not Darkpsx's advice is appropriate for this forum. I will agree that this stuff "should" be obvious to most people, however, it certainly is not. When I was struggling at 1100 elo plenty of the things darkpsx talks about aren't done. Warding. Fulfilling your own role correctly. (e.g. tanks taking kills from carries when the carry will certainly get it without the tanks help). Understanding the importance of baron vs towers. (e.g. many teams will go for one tower when they could kill baron. Baron is worth more than one tower in the long run of the game). Lane wandering. I see it quite often where a person is too far out to farm creeps.

This advice is definitely applicable to people between 1000-1200 in my experience.
As for some of the mathematical issues of ELO that were discussed:
The average elo is numerically under, but probably close to, 1200.
This follows from what we know about elo. Everyone starts at 1200. The sum of the elo gains for a team will be (approx.) the same as the sum of the elo losses. Since an average is merely the sum of all ELO divided by the number of players, it would remain unchanged over time if all increases in elo are offset by equal decreases. The only deflation that occurs in the average elo comes about as a consequence of people losing elo for queue dodging or leaving, since there is no corresponding elo gain.

The ELO curve is probably approximately normal and its only skewing effects are to the right as a consequence of leavers and queue dodges. The reason we wouldn't see signifigant skew is because people only play with people near their elo in the MM system. This means that the good players do not get to beat up on the entire pool of bad players.

Terms such as good and bad player are relative terms. The top players 10 months ago are likely bad compared to the top players today. If you want to speak about whose good and whose bad then the best way is talk about those above and below average.

Also, based on my personal experience, you don't need to be a good solo carry to proceed to the next level in ranked. I got up to 1350 from 1100 mostly playing sona and udyr. This is support and jungler, not a carry. I know everyone generally says you have to learn a carry to go further onwards in solo queue, but I think the idea is you need to learn to play at least one carry well so you can cover roles.


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Onisake

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthstrike View Post
Since people seem to be wanting to have a serious discussion here and the math of the current modified ELO system comes up a lot I just wanted to point out a few things. There's many things said that I want to respond to but I don't want to to make a "cookie cutter" post filled with partial quotes and responses. I'll start off with just one quote

"what newbies dont' know: you need to get good with a variety of high level champs. there are several roles you can play in a match.during champ select: i make a guess at who's going to win assuming equal skill level based on champs picked. i'm correct about 50% of the time. which isn't bad considering skill > items > champ."

Being correct 50% of the time when one of two teams will win a game means you are about as accurate at making predictions as a random number generator. In other words, its not very accurate at all. Theoretically, its impossible to have a prediction system less accurate than 50%. (That's because if its less than 50% then it's a good system at predicting the loser which means the inversion of the system is accurate more than 50% of the time).


Anyways this discussion seems to be centered around the notion about whether or not Darkpsx's advice is appropriate for this forum. I will agree that this stuff "should" be obvious to most people, however, it certainly is not. When I was struggling at 1100 elo plenty of the things darkpsx talks about aren't done. Warding. Fulfilling your own role correctly. (e.g. tanks taking kills from carries when the carry will certainly get it without the tanks help). Understanding the importance of baron vs towers. (e.g. many teams will go for one tower when they could kill baron. Baron is worth more than one tower in the long run of the game). Lane wandering. I see it quite often where a person is too far out to farm creeps.

This advice is definitely applicable to people between 1000-1200 in my experience.
As for some of the mathematical issues of ELO that were discussed:
The average elo is numerically under, but probably close to, 1200.
This follows from what we know about elo. Everyone starts at 1200. The sum of the elo gains for a team will be (approx.) the same as the sum of the elo losses. Since an average is merely the sum of all ELO divided by the number of players, it would remain unchanged over time if all increases in elo are offset by equal decreases. The only deflation that occurs in the average elo comes about as a consequence of people losing elo for queue dodging or leaving, since there is no corresponding elo gain.

The ELO curve is probably approximately normal and its only skewing effects are to the right as a consequence of leavers and queue dodges. The reason we wouldn't see signifigant skew is because people only play with people near their elo in the MM system. This means that the good players do not get to beat up on the entire pool of bad players.

Terms such as good and bad player are relative terms. The top players 10 months ago are likely bad compared to the top players today. If you want to speak about whose good and whose bad then the best way is talk about those above and below average.

Also, based on my personal experience, you don't need to be a good solo carry to proceed to the next level in ranked. I got up to 1350 from 1100 mostly playing sona and udyr. This is support and jungler, not a carry. I know everyone generally says you have to learn a carry to go further onwards in solo queue, but I think the idea is you need to learn to play at least one carry well so you can cover roles.
You missed the point i was getting at there. i should have been more clear. what i meant, at my ELO skill is not balanced. otherwise that would sky-rocket. at higher level, my predictions are far more accurate. but i have so little data, it's not a statistically valid sample. i've seen maybe 10 final tournament matches. my accuracy is about 70% at that level. but again, only 10 samples. that could be random luck. it's not a valid sample. with my own experience i've played maybe 150 ranked games. so that sample is valid. my n is much larger.

i don't want to get into ELO math of LoL, mainly because we have access to only some of the data. and only some of that data i would consider 'good' data. basically anyone who hasn't played more than 20+ games isn't a valid data point. there's almost 6000 of these data points. they dont' add any value to the sample. i'd much rather see the baddie who's played 50 games but has a rank of 890 than the guy who played 4 games with 2 win and 2 losses. but that's a different topic entirely. the curve should be normal. good players should not be paired with bad players in 'official' matches that can effect your score. the fact that doesnt' happen is a good thing. that doesn't make it an ELO system. that was my point. it is fundamentally different because of one key aspect: your performance is not based on your skills alone. therefore your score is not reflective of your personal ability.

As it is, this should be in generl guides. it's not completely inappropriate for it to be here though. i'd like DarkPSX to share more of his knowledge with us. not just give us everything we should already know. i think that's the biggest misunderstanding here. i'm not faulting him. i'm just greedy. give me more.

Udyr is/was a carry. in fact, if you have a bad jungler: you lose. end of story. bad junglers lose games. junglers are carries. they play an extremely critical role. a bad jungler makes the game 4v5.

Pre-nerf sona was a carry and very OP. riot even said Sona was far too powerful. i'm not sure what you're talking about there.

do that with Soraka and then you can make that claim. Soraka is a very powerful support champ. i would argue she's better than Sona. it's possible. it's just she's far too easy to counter. the reason i say Soraka, is because she's largely undervalued as a champion. it's also nearly impossible to carry with her.


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CaptainTrips01

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Senior Member

01-12-2011

My elo is something like 1100 after a bunch of accidental queue dodges, but I think along the lines of the 1400-1875 category. I know I'm not good enough to be at the high an ELO but its a good sign for me that I already do all that stuff.


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DarkPsx

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Senior Member

01-13-2011

My rating is in the 1600's right now, and my highest achieved was 1843. The reason I tanked my rating low was mostly because I let my friend get on my name to try out ranked games and I didn't realize he'd be playing that many over a span of 2 weeks :P not a big deal, since I know I can eventually get back up there. I let him play since he wanted exposure to higher level play, he was stuck in the 1100's for a while.

If you wish to see certain elements of things like champion select and countering covered, please just propose it and have people comment on it. What I wrote is a very general guide for little goes a long way. Since this is a discussion on how to improve your gameplay experience, feel free to add to the discussion and I can even chime in on it.


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Onisake

Senior Member

01-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPsx View Post
My rating is in the 1600's right now, and my highest achieved was 1843. The reason I tanked my rating low was mostly because I let my friend get on my name to try out ranked games and I didn't realize he'd be playing that many over a span of 2 weeks :P not a big deal, since I know I can eventually get back up there. I let him play since he wanted exposure to higher level play, he was stuck in the 1100's for a while.

If you wish to see certain elements of things like champion select and countering covered, please just propose it and have people comment on it. What I wrote is a very general guide for little goes a long way. Since this is a discussion on how to improve your gameplay experience, feel free to add to the discussion and I can even chime in on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onisake View Post
the things he need to add are

an explanation of how draft picking works. and the strategies that shoudl be employed before the match even starts.

an explanation of certain key items you see in high level play that are often absent from low level play

the importance of a core build that branches in several directions

the fundamental differences between caster carries and DPS carries and why DPS > casters and why certain champs are consistently picked for higher level play and why some aren't.
i did?

anyway. i think this topic has died down. not many people are adding anything. they are either just agreeing with you, flaming me, or flaming me for being a ****, but also agreeing with me.


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BestScytherNA

Senior Member

01-14-2011

Perhaps there are riot staff who could observe random players who consistently get good scores but lose because the enemy was more fed than them? I recently got a new account because solo ranked is not nice to tanks like rammus, amumu, shen, and nasus, who were all my best champs. This way players could be considered for an ELO adjustment.