What happened to Kayle?

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xNECROx

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Senior Member

01-02-2011

I think her problem is ultimately that she lacks a "stun" or "cc" source and that's what this game is about. There is just better options.


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Eddy01741

Senior Member

01-02-2011

Kog, MF, corki, and sivir all lack CC, they're all still strong carries.


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Kalcos

Senior Member

01-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrlaari View Post
Rioters often note that split damage is powerful and they're leery of letting too many builds that do split damage into the game, but they rarely explain why.

Split damage is effectively 50% penetration for free.

Armor costs 15 + 5/9ths gold per point for the most efficient item (chain vest stacking)
Mr costs about 15.4 gpp (negatron cloak). MR is only very slightly cheaper than armor.

Each point of MR and Armor both gives 1% of your base HP in EHP against their respective damage; what looks at first like "diminishing returns" (in % per point) is in fact merely not exponential returns (in EHP, the bottom line value for all defense stats).

Assume two hypothetical champions who deal exactly as much damage as Kayle, but 100% magic and physical respectively. We'll call them Mayle and Payle. For simplicitly we'll assume Kayle's damage is evenly split, though I'm in fact it will lean one way or the other depending on duration (magic spike from Q, each swing with E favors phys).

Each point of armor gives a target 1% of base hp in EHP against Payle, 0.5% EHP against Kayle, and does nothing against Mayle.
Each point of armor gives a target 1% of base hp in EHP against Mayle, 0.5% EHP against Kayle, and does nothing against Payle.

In order to get the same EHP against Kayle as against either Payle or Mayle (but not both) a champion must pay roughly twice, once for the armor and once for the MR.

This is why teams that have both a straight AD champ and a mage do better than teams with only AD (and a contributing factor to improved performance over mage only teams, which also suffer because AD champs scale harder late game) - punishing straight armor or straight MR stacking is powerful.

Normally, it's okay to favor armor a touch over MR as mages rarely get as much raw sustained damage as AD carries. It's also common for a particular champion to get most of the kills and have more damage, giving the other team an opportunity to counterpick items that reduce that champion's damage.

If a phys/magic split damage character gets fed (easier to do on Kog'Maw, Akali, or aspd TF than on Kayle) however, you just have to pay twice for the resistance.
Good post. I admit I really thought it was diminishing returns but I think you are right. Thanks for the clarifications. However the reverse is true too, LW only gives 20% pen to hybrids. I still feel it's easier to stack one type of damage and pentration because against that you still end up paying twice for the resistance. I suppose you can build more damage instead of penetration but AD can crit, can lifesteal while magic does nothing and there are very few Mpen options for dps (malady and sorc boots?). There are at least 2 dual defense items (Aegis and GA) but no dual pen item I find it unfair.

Good point on specializing damage type.


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Edereon

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01-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by xNECROx View Post
I think her problem is ultimately that she lacks a "stun" or "cc" source and that's what this game is about. There is just better options.
CC isn't mandatory as a lot of carries and other champs don't have hard CC but are still good. Her slow is efficient enough and giving her red buff will make her a shredding machine.