Can we talk about balancing priority?

First Riot Post
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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregan View Post
seriously, why is it that you guys acknowledge this sort of thing about champ kits/design WAY after they're out there, but you cant recognize this from the drawing room or internal playtesting? riot has had this problem since beta.
Back in beta they didn't look at kit-coherency; they added moves that fit some aspect of the champion without regard to AP or AD generally (Sion).

Some made a lot more sense than others. Some champ's overall kits worked better than others. It isn't until recently, like S3 and after, that I'd call them out on drawing room/internal playtesting stuff.


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Bregan

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01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maulkrieg View Post
Back in beta they didn't look at kit-coherency; they added moves that fit some aspect of the champion without regard to AP or AD generally (Sion).

Some made a lot more sense than others. Some champ's overall kits worked better than others. It isn't until recently, like S3 and after, that's I'd call them out on drawing room/internal playtesting stuff.
really? REALLY? the clearest beta instance i can recall was releasing blitz to us with a FIVE SECOND aoe silence on his ult.and then they were like "oops, too strong" when any idiot should be able to recognize how absurd it is. also, "kitchen sink" kits like irelia, and the ultimate abomination of an overloaded kit so far, lee sin.

graves: good kit. nice scaling and utility, got small numbers tweaks.
riven: interesting kit mechanics, nice scaling and... wait.. wtf that SCALING???? and the shield is on HOW low of a cd? with HOW much mobility AND cc?
thresh: high skill, team cooperation, come decent cc, fine scaling with souls. a strong kit with distinct pros/cons and play/counterplay
lee sin: multiple gap closers, personal AND allied shield, great scaling a solid base damages, execute mechanic on low cd, manaless, sustain, reveals, movespeed slow with ATTACK SPEED LOW ON TOP OF IT FOR NO REASON, disengage/hardcc kick, attackspeed steroid.... did i miss anything?

see, its not that riot CANT make decent champs or that they havent released good ideas. its that they make a LOT of mistakes that are EASY to see coming and prevent, and they still do it. and then after they're caught, they do little bandaid fixes that DONT SOLVE THE PROBLEM.


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregan View Post
really? REALLY? the clearest beta instance i can recall was releasing blitz to us with a FIVE SECOND aoe silence on his ult.and then they were like "oops, too strong" when any idiot should be able to recognize how absurd it is. also, "kitchen sink" kits like irelia, and the ultimate abomination of an overloaded kit so far, lee sin.

graves: good kit. nice scaling and utility, got small numbers tweaks.
riven: interesting kit mechanics, nice scaling and... wait.. wtf that SCALING???? and the shield is on HOW low of a cd? with HOW much mobility AND cc?
thresh: high skill, team cooperation, come decent cc, fine scaling with souls. a strong kit with distinct pros/cons and play/counterplay
lee sin: multiple gap closers, personal AND allied shield, great scaling a solid base damages, execute mechanic on low cd, manaless, sustain, reveals, movespeed slow with ATTACK SPEED LOW ON TOP OF IT FOR NO REASON, disengage/hardcc kick, attackspeed steroid.... did i miss anything?


see, its not that riot CANT make decent champs or that they havent released good ideas. its that they make a LOT of mistakes that are EASY to see coming and prevent, and they still do it. and then after they're caught, they do little bandaid fixes that DONT SOLVE THE PROBLEM.
First off, you sound like you're angry at something, not making an argument.

Second, the mechanics, durations, and such were all based on DotA. It worked in DotA, so they tried it in LoL without realizing how fast paced the game was, in addition to the higher overall scaling champions had with itemization.

'Kitchen sink' kits, as you put it, where introduced in an attempt to make melee viable against the insane advantage that range gave champions in LoL. Lee Sin was the way he was because skillshots were supposed to be less reliable than they actually are. The AS slow was to help address ADCs.

Lol @ Thresh counterplay. His hook and ult have counterplay. His E is pretty much on him whether or not it hits, and his W has absolutely no counterplay and has a huge impact.


The only thing you're really right about is that these band-aid fixes won't solve anything.


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MikeyIke

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Some of it is that many champions can't be balanced without a rework - though I think many more than we focus on now could be. There's no world where Riven is in a good spot that's not total dominance. Same with Kassadin - too much reliability/lack of failure case/perfection results in pre-determined outcomes/overloaded with stats or tools on those champs to not have their balance results be binary or reliant on hard-counter trends.
Eh...I don't like how you used Riven as an example of something you need to rework. I don't want her to be changed. ;; Her recent nerfs (Not counting the unneeded health regen nerfs.) didn't put her in a state of absolute dominance nor did it stomp her out and weaken her to the point of any champion being able to breath in her general direction and knock her out of the game. And not to mention her only REAL unstoppable can't defend against anti-fun stomp her without even trying counter is Garen. The rest that can be considered so are skill match ups. I, along with most others, agree that we are currently already living in a world where Riven is in a good spot without having total dominance. (Thanks to the recent, and some of the finest tuning I have ever seen from your company.)


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Holy Malevolence

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Some of it is that many champions can't be balanced without a rework - though I think many more than we focus on now could be. There's no world where Riven is in a good spot that's not total dominance. Same with Kassadin - too much reliability/lack of failure case/perfection results in pre-determined outcomes/overloaded with stats or tools on those champs to not have their balance results be binary or reliant on hard-counter trends.
I can understand Kassadin being like that due to the nature of his ultimate, but Riven feels like an extremely poor example who should be able to work full well without being an absolutely dominant force.
Because, really, there's nothing inherently horrible in her kit outside the fact that she's AD. And when it comes to AD champions, that's just a general fact o' life, Riven's in no way the worst of it.

Hell, the Ranged AD class as a whole probably fits the situation better with how you guys seem so afraid to remove them from their mandatory position.


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Brale Bane Power

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Riot and about balancing LOL? Huge fail! Why riot you totally ignored Evelynn for about 4 years? Rumble for 3 years? Urgot hahahah? Yorick? Hey Riot I dont know if you knew you got others champions that Riven, Tryndsmere, annie, teemo, malph, darius, etc etc etc. Every time I ask why they didnt touch Rumble or evelynn for nearly 4 years, NO ONE from Riot answes, , because they are afraid or something or they have nothing to say about them? Whatever reason it is, they do not deserve it. Stop telling me they are not popular or hard for skin or need a complete VU . NO EXCUSES!


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Badnik96

Senior Member

01-30-2014

guys for the last damn time they can't make any rumble skins until his VU


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Brale Bane Power

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Like I said .... No excuse. They said it, 10 months ago.... Its not too hard to make a one inch animated charactere.. They are just incompetent if they cant.


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Linna Excel

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Morello, why not bring in a few more devs and create a priority team? This is the people who work just on priorities. If you want to do a passion project, you have to have a priority credit (finished at least one priority). Maybe give 3 priority credits or whatever based on the size of your team. That way people still get their passion projects done, but at least some time is spent on priorities. Like a second pass after a rework or something in that nature.


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brale Bane Power View Post
Riot and about balancing LOL? Huge fail! Why riot you totally ignored Evelynn for about 4 years? Rumble for 3 years? Urgot hahahah? Yorick? Hey Riot I dont know if you knew you got others champions that Riven, Tryndsmere, annie, teemo, malph, darius, etc etc etc. Every time I ask why they didnt touch Rumble or evelynn for nearly 4 years, NO ONE from Riot answes, , because they are afraid or something or they have nothing to say about them? Whatever reason it is, they do not deserve it. Stop telling me they are not popular or hard for skin or need a complete VU . NO EXCUSES!
Uhh...Eve got tons of attention. Rumble was a very good pick at several points during LoL's lifespan. Enough to have taken nothing but nerfs recently.