Why isn't Janna allowed to have any meaningful rewards for charging Q?

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Soiyeruda

Senior Member

01-30-2014

bump.


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Steelflame

Senior Member

01-30-2014

As a Janna player, the only real thing I would like for her tornado is for the mana cost to slowly refund itself as you let it charge, and for it to travel faster the longer it is charged. You can

A. Insta-throw it out, and go for it landing as an instant CC.
B. Let it charge up, refunding up to half the mana cost. While you can't control where the enemy will be, the threat of the nado grows with time as if you DO walk into the path she set for it, she can instantly release it at a much higher speed than it's normal instant usage speed.

This would make it actually have a sustainable mana cost, rather than a mana cost that is larger than quite a few ults on a skill that... well... isn't exactly worthy of being called an ult. This would also make the charge more reasonable to land. As is, why ever charge it when you know for a fact they can STILL just walk to the side very easily, even if they happened to be in it's way (they won't be).


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Soiyeruda

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelflame View Post
As a Janna player, the only real thing I would like for her tornado is for the mana cost to slowly refund itself as you let it charge. You can

A. Insta-throw it out, and go for it landing.
B. Let it charge up, refunding up to half the mana cost.

This would make it actually have a sustainable mana cost, rather than a mana cost that is larger than quite a few ults on a skill that... well... isn't exactly worthy of being called an ult.
I was thinking something along these lines but decided against it because it doesn't solve the fact that insta-thrown tornados are almost always better. It also doesn't make a lot of sense that a theoretically stronger tornado has half the mana cost.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-30-2014
1 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soiyeruda View Post
Howling Gale
RANGE: 1100-1700
COOLDOWN: 14/13/12/11/10
COST: 90/105/120/135/150 MANA

MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 85 / 110 / 135 / 160 (+ 35% AP)
ADDITIONAL DAMAGE PER SECOND CHARGING: 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 (+ 10% AP)
MAX MAGIC DAMAGE: 95 / 145 / 195 / 225 / 265 (+ 65% AP)
Knock-up duration: .75 seconds when fired off immediately, 1 second when charged for the full 3 seconds.

So for 3 seconds of an ability with a giveaway sound effect (even if you can't see the particle), you get 105 base damage, .3 AP, and .25 seconds of knock-up. The base damage is abysmal when uncharged and only average when fully charged. The CC's main benefit is reliability, but that's when it's fired off instantly. There's absolutely no incentive to try and charge this ability.

Since Riot seems to want players to charge Janna's Q and Ultimate when it becomes optimal to do so, I think I'd rather see some meaningful buffs to Q as opposed to overpowering her other abilities and leaving her with a half-ass'd Q.

Suggestions (not all at once, just things that can make it better):

Let the cooldown of the ability start ticking down ala Lux's E/Gragas's Q. This does not require compensating by increasing Q's cooldown as it is already comparable in CD to similar options. As it is, charging Janna's Q may as well be read as "increase the cooldown of this ability by 3 seconds to miss it".
Knock-up scales from .75 to 1 second from no charge to 2.99s charged. At 3s charged, the ability knocks up for 1.5 seconds instead. Additionally, the ability deals an extra 70 (+.2 AP) magic damage for a total of 335 + .85 magic damage. This is similar to how Nunu's ultimate works. if this will destroy minion waves too fast, compensate with 20% reduced damage to minions.
Decrease the charge time from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. Alter damage ramp to compensate.
Casting Howling Gale within 5 seconds after casting Monsoon gives you a fully charged Howling Gale that fires immediately. Probably a bit nonsensical, but at least it gives her a chance to hit enemies with a fully charged Q.
Have the missile speed ramp up with charge, from what it is now at no charge to about twice as fast at full charge.
Lower the mana cost from 90/105/120/135/150 to 80/90/100/110/120. Because let's be honest, this ability is horribly overpriced.

I could probably go on with other potential buffs, but I think it speaks for itself. There's no incentive to charge Janna's Howling Gale. There's almost no situation where charging it for minor damage and CC buffs is better. If it weren't for the fact that ranking up the ability decreases the cooldown, I'd leave it at rank 1 just to save myself 60 mana per cast.

EDIT: @Riot, @Morello, @Whoever is on the balance team.
Agreed - this should be a strong reward and isn't. I don't like variable CC due to how tightly CC duration prediction is connected to intuitive feel, and damage can get us into mage territory, but those are only two of several (and many possible) ideas. Good call generally.


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IonCannonKarthus

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - this should be a strong reward and isn't. I don't like variable CC due to how tightly CC duration prediction is connected to intuitive feel, and damage can get us into mage territory, but those are only two of several (and many possible) ideas. Good call generally.

Maybe having a fully charged Tornado's damage rivaling the power of an AP Mage is a good thing?


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Ketalia

Senior Member

01-30-2014

You run too great of risk missing it altogether when you charge it, and because the benefits of charging in are negligible, firing it off instantly has greater efficiency.

One suggestion is let the tornado charge on her so that she could charge it, have it be ready, and then when an opportunity arises release it from your location. Perhaps you only get 5-6 seconds after it is fully charged to fire it off or it dissipates.


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Jvenom23

Recruiter

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - this should be a strong reward and isn't. I don't like variable CC due to how tightly CC duration prediction is connected to intuitive feel, and damage can get us into mage territory, but those are only two of several (and many possible) ideas. Good call generally.
Annie, a mage is allowed to be a support, but god forbid Janna the support ever dare be a mage


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jmlinden7

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - this should be a strong reward and isn't. I don't like variable CC due to how tightly CC duration prediction is connected to intuitive feel, and damage can get us into mage territory, but those are only two of several (and many possible) ideas. Good call generally.
Keep it at .75 seconds but reduce the CD for every enemy champion it hits. Also, reduce the mana cost.


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SilvertonguedDvl

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Personally I didn't mind her being able to waveclear minions (at max charge anyways) given that her AP options are somewhat... awkward compared to other mages and even other supports.

I guess I just don't see why she should be so viciously pigeonholed into being a support when she could very easily be both with a reasonable change like "if you can hit something with a three second charge you deal significant damage." There are already tons of mages who can effortlessly do that even without significant AP investments, such as Gragas and Morgana. Janna doesn't provide that much more CC than Morg, and ultimately deals far less damage, so...

I don't know, I guess I'm just confused as to why it is so utterly taboo for Janna to have waveclear.

Why not just have it so that the base damage of the tornado is decent, but the scaling damage is all in AP ratios? Just enough so that when it is fully charged it is brought, roughly anyways, near to where it was pre-rejiggering?


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EpicSmurfAccount

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - this should be a strong reward and isn't. I don't like variable CC due to how tightly CC duration prediction is connected to intuitive feel, and damage can get us into mage territory, but those are only two of several (and many possible) ideas. Good call generally.
Mage territory? You mean like...Annie? God forbid Supports are actually viable in other lanes.


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