the ELO system is completely F***ed

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Evilpigeon

Adjudicator

12-26-2010

Factors pertaining to individual performance should never be included in the game's match making systrem, there are a lot of factors that determine why one person wins and a nother loses and most of them have nothing to do with stats.

This is a team game, you play a support and pick clairvoyance and you will automatically imrpove your team's chances of winning. You don't get any assists for using clairvoyance to help cause a kill.

If you rage and ***** and whine, you don't deserve to have an elo increase, just because you're mechanically better than some of the other players you're with, you are going to lose a lot more games because people don't respond well to someone who doesn't play with their team in a team game.

If you don't place wards, never call mia or communicate or show any ability to lead your team you do not deserve to be rewarded for losing games that these qualities might have won for you.

The Elo system, as used by Riot has been modified for use in this game, win/loss is also the only way to take into account every aspect of the game and produces the most fair rating of your overall ability as a player. When I make posts like this people often make idiotic responses involving a feeder or leaver they had in a recent game. First off this is anecdotal evidence and virtually worthless and second a better player would have won anyway, or would have won other games that you lost without anyone leaving. Feeding is something that you should be able to handle. You're complaining that you lost because someone had a bad game, it's pathetic and you will have bad games as well.


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kioik

Senior Member

12-26-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilpigeon View Post
Factors pertaining to individual performance should never be included in the game's match making systrem, there are a lot of factors that determine why one person wins and a nother loses and most of them have nothing to do with stats.

This is a team game, you play a support and pick clairvoyance and you will automatically imrpove your team's chances of winning. You don't get any assists for using clairvoyance to help cause a kill.

If you rage and ***** and whine, you don't deserve to have an elo increase, just because you're mechanically better than some of the other players you're with, you are going to lose a lot more games because people don't respond well to someone who doesn't play with their team in a team game.

If you don't place wards, never call mia or communicate or show any ability to lead your team you do not deserve to be rewarded for losing games that these qualities might have won for you.

The Elo system, as used by Riot has been modified for use in this game, win/loss is also the only way to take into account every aspect of the game and produces the most fair rating of your overall ability as a player. When I make posts like this people often make idiotic responses involving a feeder or leaver they had in a recent game. First off this is anecdotal evidence and virtually worthless and second a better player would have won anyway, or would have won other games that you lost without anyone leaving. Feeding is something that you should be able to handle. You're complaining that you lost because someone had a bad game, it's pathetic and you will have bad games as well.
Evilpigeon, may I call you EP? Ok, thanks.

The Elo system and mechanics is a broad stroke of a player's ability. It does not take into account other factors, such as individual champions. You can look at any of the high Elo players and clearly see they have negative (win - loss) totals with some champions that they don't normally play. Ergo, Elo is better suited at the champion level.

For example, let us look at Reginald. He has 6 wins and 11 losses as Ashe. That surely does not justify a 2,100+ Elo. Therefore, if he loads up Ashe for a ranked game, do not expect him to play at 2,100+ Elo.

Again same player with Kassadin; 3 wins and 9 losses. Is this the performance you would expect from a 2,100+ Elo player? I don't.

Therefore, player Elo is a broad stroke of ability. Riot staff should consider refining the Elo system at the champion level.


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darksinthe

Member

12-26-2010

Ok, I completely agree with you Evilpigeon, But in the bottom of the pits in ELO hell though, no one uses wards, no one communicates, and 1/10 players will ragequit, 3/10 will feed. at that point it requires almost complete luck to get out of it. Kind of hard to buy wards when you are under-golded or your team cant even control 1/4th of the map, let alone place them in decent areas. People are whining at each other during champion select in 90% of games under 1000 ELO. I dunno, maybe you're right and the best thing to do to fix it is to be harder on people under 1000 ELO for arguing all the time. Suspend them for leaving more than 1 game in a day, etc. *shrug*

I guess I'll just wait for season 3 to roll around to start playing ranked again. seems like my only option because its not worth it to me to deal with these people to try and get out of this ELO rating.

P.S. I also agree with kiok


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Draconic

Senior Member

12-26-2010

First, its a MODDED version of elo.

Second, modded or not, it sucks.

Thank you.


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Evilpigeon

Adjudicator

12-26-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by kioik View Post
Evilpigeon, may I call you EP? Ok, thanks.

The Elo system and mechanics is a broad stroke of a player's ability. It does not take into account other factors, such as individual champions. You can look at any of the high Elo players and clearly see they have negative (win - loss) totals with some champions that they don't normally play. Ergo, Elo is better suited at the champion level.

For example, let us look at Reginald. He has 6 wins and 11 losses as Ashe. That surely does not justify a 2,100+ Elo. Therefore, if he loads up Ashe for a ranked game, do not expect him to play at 2,100+ Elo.

Again same player with Kassadin; 3 wins and 9 losses. Is this the performance you would expect from a 2,100+ Elo player? I don't.

Therefore, player Elo is a broad stroke of ability. Riot staff should consider refining the Elo system at the champion level.

Would be nice... not sure how you could go about it though. Maybe modify a player's effective elo post game, based upon the champion played so that people don't lose so much elo if someone on their team is playing for the first time.

also: @ Darksinthe I reckon the elo hell posts have always been more about game quality than anything actually holding players back and yeah, sadly it is pretty ****ty at low elos :/ I heard that Riot are supposed to be introducing more community improvement measures in the future, hopefully it'll help.


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Cele

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

12-26-2010

o look, another one of these threads


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bloodchow

Senior Member

12-26-2010

really Riot had to rework ELO system, it is SOOOO broken

wonder if u had leavers in your team for 10 MATCHES? how do u feel? u feel omg my ELo , ok i am in elo hell i dun care la


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bloodchow

Senior Member

12-26-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilpigeon View Post
Factors pertaining to individual performance should never be included in the game's match making systrem, there are a lot of factors that determine why one person wins and a nother loses and most of them have nothing to do with stats.

This is a team game, you play a support and pick clairvoyance and you will automatically imrpove your team's chances of winning. You don't get any assists for using clairvoyance to help cause a kill.

If you rage and ***** and whine, you don't deserve to have an elo increase, just because you're mechanically better than some of the other players you're with, you are going to lose a lot more games because people don't respond well to someone who doesn't play with their team in a team game.

If you don't place wards, never call mia or communicate or show any ability to lead your team you do not deserve to be rewarded for losing games that these qualities might have won for you.

The Elo system, as used by Riot has been modified for use in this game, win/loss is also the only way to take into account every aspect of the game and produces the most fair rating of your overall ability as a player. When I make posts like this people often make idiotic responses involving a feeder or leaver they had in a recent game. First off this is anecdotal evidence and virtually worthless and second a better player would have won anyway, or would have won other games that you lost without anyone leaving. Feeding is something that you should be able to handle. You're complaining that you lost because someone had a bad game, it's pathetic and you will have bad games as well.
WTF i HAD 5 LEAVERS IN MY RANKED GAME oh GOD my 100 ELO GONE wtf u


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cortexson

Senior Member

12-26-2010

First I want to say: The people who try to justify the validity of the ELO system based on the opinions of high ELO players are missing something very big. High ELO players are HIGH ELO. Why would they discredit themselves by saying that the ELO system is broken?

In a nutshell: There are several fundamental flaws in the rating system that all come together to entirely destroy the gaming experience for serious players trying to climb out of the low ELO bracket.


1. I am sure this has been stated a billion times, but League of Legends is a team game. You need inter-team interactions in order to be effective. You simply cannot carry a team in a 5 vs 5 solo queue match. You can't be in 3 lanes simultaneously, and you cannot push every tower for your team. You can't stop your team from baroning when the entire enemy team is up, even if you say pretty please. Even if you destroy your lane, assist other lanes, ward, etc, you can't definitively stop your team from feeding/from being pushed alone. This is simply how it works. Go to the counter logic gaming stream, and watch the high ELO players stream. Hotshotgg, one of the highest ranked players, loses very often when he is doing solo queues. You would think that a player who broke 2k ELO knows what he is doing, and I think hotshotgg does know what he is doing. But that doesn't stop him from losing 2 matches in a row on the Christmas eve. In one match, he said, I quote: "I can't carry these noobs". If a single player can carry the team, then how come you consistently see high ELO players lose in solo queue? Mind you, this is HIGH ELO. Below 1200, there is no such thing as a well balanced team composition, map control, teamwork, and caution. Below 1200 it is a First Person Shooter hell. Players try out new champs in ranked, players leave ranked games, players use exhaust on Anivia, players turret dive at lvl 1, players get 1 cs per minute (happened in my last match). How can you carry such a team? You can't. People who say: "You should pick a good carry and carry the team to victory" are only making the problem worse; Everyone picks a carry. You cannot win matches very often with 5 carries on a team. People insta-lock. People ban alistor because they are bored of the standard choices (again, it is sad, but it has happened to me). It simply doesn't work.

2. There is no well defined boundary between competitive play and "casual" play. To play a ranked game, all you have to do is get to level 30. Given enough time, anyone can get to level 30, no matter how bad they are. However, the initial ranked ELO for any player is 1200. This is a huge flaw. Mediocre players who simply want to try out ranked, and aren't serious about competitive play drag everyone who is serious down with them.

I am a programmer myself, and I think Riot took the easy way out in the ranking. Measuring the viability of a player based on the collective effectiveness of his team is nothing short of ridiculous. But I do appreciate the magnitude of this problem. There is no easy way to accurately measure the effectiveness of a player. But I think we will get better results by measuring the effectiveness by a weighted ratio of the number of structures destroyed, K/D ratio, and assists. Don't simply subtract/add ELO based on loses/wins. It is not your fault if your malphite rage quits because he gets killed by GP twice in 10 minutes in a solo lane (yes, this too happened to me 2 days ago, and this also happened in HotshotGG's ranked solo queue on Christmas eve).

tldr: The most easiest solution to fixing this problem is to simply reduce the base ELO from 1200 to 0. This is a bad solution, and will only partially solve the issue, but it is better then nothing. This will make it so that with enough gameplay, players will converge to their home ELO much quicker. This is the most obvious solution. Right now the game assumes that any new ranked player is 1200 ELO good, when you can be as bad as 0 ELO. Bad players drop to their home ELO, and good players have to climb to their home ELO. However, the bad players drag the good players down with them due to the team based nature of the game. Having a base ELO of 0 bypasses the invalid assumption that all new ranked game players are at least as good as 1200 ELO.


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MetalHev

Senior Member

12-26-2010

Ya know, we could just rate the players by total gold earned for the team in a game divided by game time.
i.e. You kill a creep, +20-something score. You help kill a turret, +500 or whatever the total gold for all the 5 players is. You help kill dragon, +1k score. Help killing someone and get the total gold in score. Give the nexus a score too.
So people would try to end the game fast, actually assist instead of afk farming the jungle, and push like real men. Oh and they wouldn't solo gank because that kills the assist gold pool and reduces the score by a lot.