Do not end your game with the following in your inventory!

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Morzas

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterPuff View Post
Lets see, if I hard carry into 3 avarices, own a **** ton, eventually go back boots and BF sword, im at 5 slots.

I own some more, go back by my inf edge and zeal, own more, upgrade zeal to phantom. and win.

Hmmmmm. 3 avarices, boots, phantom.

I couldnt have sold them to get anything earlier, or I would be gimping my CS and pure ownage.

While your argument is sound, it is wrong.
Late game, your crit chance, damage and attack speed would have been better if you sold those two Avarice Blades to get Elixir of Agility + Elixir of Fortitude. You don't sell them while you're trying to build endgame items, you sell them after you've finished said items and would be better off chugging Elixirs.


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Bodknocks

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Recruiter

12-29-2009

There's no reason to sell them until you have to. You'd actually be LOSING money if you sold any of those items before all six slots are filled. And a lot of games end before you can fill six slots with crafted epic gear, so there's generally nothing wrong with ending the game with these items in your inventory.


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BarbeqdBrwniez

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Senior Member

12-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morzas View Post
If you end the game with that Philosopher's Stone, you could have sold it and gotten Elixir of Fortitude + Elixir of Agility/Brilliance and made your endgame more favorable.
This is a matter of preference, you can sell it, to get elixers, or you can choose to keep it and get more high-end items before selling it.


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meorah

Member

12-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodknocks View Post
There's no reason to sell them until you have to. You'd actually be LOSING money if you sold any of those items before all six slots are filled. And a lot of games end before you can fill six slots with crafted epic gear, so there's generally nothing wrong with ending the game with these items in your inventory.
^ this


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Hedgepig

Senior Member

12-29-2009

I am not a big fan of selling a permanent boost item for a temporary one. If I sell all my picks/hearts/whatever and buy elixirs, and the game does not end in 5 minutes, then I'm left with nothing. These items are intended to provide a free bonus to your early game, but nothing says you cant use that free/profitable bonus late game as well.

In short, a Philosophers stone sold at 20 minutes has a net cost of 0, and provided 5400 health, and 2400 mana. A Philosphers stone sold at 40 minutes has a net cost of -600, provided 10800 health and 4800 mana. The latter is certaintly a better deal if you didnt need a short term boost for any reason. If the game ends before you get around to selling it, you still regenerated a lot and got paid to do it. Its not a clear cut decision.

/Vague Maths
Certainly you can do the math on the cost of the item, the sale price of the item, and figure out how long you need to hold it till you break even. At that point, you can choose to do whatever you want with it. Keep in mind however that selling the item doesnt just return you the gold back, it costs you some stats, and costs you a small gold return. For instance:

Philosopher's stone: This item builds from early game regen items that you might want anyways. Recipe costs 250, so buying the recipe nets you 50% more regen from the base items, and breaks even after 8.3 minutes. It sells for 560, I believe (Correct me if I'm wrong), meaning after owning it for 18.75 minutes you can sell it and break even on the whole thing (ie, you have as much gold as you would have if you never bought it, plus the benefits from owning it early game. So say, 23 minutes in (if I got the stone at 4 minutes in), I can sell the stone and now I have 1125 gold again (+whatever else I have).
Question is, what do I get with that gold? I lost all my regen, and If I need regen I'll have to pick a different regen item. I could buy a pricer item, Archangels or Warmogs or perhaps I want the bonus from Haunting Guise or something. But its definately a tradeoff. Expensive items arent necessarily more cost effective, they are just more slot effective (or provide a unique bonus which has an isolatable cost). If I do swap it out it could provide a timely boost in power (ie, getting a tiamat for more damage and less regen now that the game isn't laning anymore). Or I could keep it for another 20 minutes, make another 600g, keep the regen, and sell it when I need a slot. At that point its given me net profit instead of breaking even, and provided its regen bonus for more time.


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Tyrfang

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Basic economics...You have already paid for the item. It is a sunk cost. Do not take into account what you paid for the item when choosing whether or not to keep it.

In reality, you should be comparing the effect of a gold/5 item to having an item slot + the selling cost of the item.

Unless you KNOW the game is about to end, I don't see the point in ever selling a gold/5 item early unless you need that small gold boost to finish off an end game item OR you need an item slot for elixirs/wards.


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Morzas

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbeqdBrwniez View Post
This is a matter of preference, you can sell it, to get elixers, or you can choose to keep it and get more high-end items before selling it.
Philosopher's Stone is not a useful item in endgame situations. When you hit level 16 or so, your character's natural HP and Mana regen are high enough to keep you in lane for a while, and your items should be giving you tons of Max HP and Max Mana by now. In endgame situations, it's way more useful to sell it and get Elixirs / Guardian Angel / more DPS. If you have a Philosopher's Stone in your endgame items, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of that item's purpose.ear

Plus, if the game's gone on for 25+ minutes and you think you can farm up another item that costs 3k gold, then the enemy team can too. It's better to try to end the game right there than to be a coward and continue farming when you've got more than enough gear to kill them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgepig View Post
Philosopher's stone: This item builds from early game regen items that you might want anyways. Recipe costs 250, so buying the recipe nets you 50% more regen from the base items, and breaks even after 8.3 minutes. It sells for 560, I believe (Correct me if I'm wrong), meaning after owning it for 18.75 minutes you can sell it and break even on the whole thing (ie, you have as much gold as you would have if you never bought it, plus the benefits from owning it early game. So say, 23 minutes in (if I got the stone at 4 minutes in), I can sell the stone and now I have 1125 gold again (+whatever else I have). Question is, what do I get with that gold? I lost all my regen, and If I need regen I'll have to pick a different regen item. I could buy a pricer item, Archangels or Warmogs or perhaps I want the bonus from Haunting Guise or something.
In endgame situations (I'm talking all Tier 1 and 2 down, with one team possibly having baron) HP and mana regeneration really mean little. Are those little ticks of HP and mana going to save you from a fed Yi? No, but some extra HP (elixir of fortitude) might. Is the 24% critical chance you get from two Avarice Blades going to win you the final push? No, but a Cloak of Agility and Elixir of Agility might, those two items together give you much higher DPS.

Also, to people who say that they don't like selling gold-per-5 items because "Elixirs run out", once you play the game as much as I have, you'll know when the game's actually over and you can sell them safely. Here are some signs of an endgame:

1: People start camping/doing baron
2: Enemy and/or your team is pushed back to their Inhibitor Turrets
3: Game has gone on for 20~25 minutes with no clear victor as of yet
4: Physical carries have farmed 200+ creeps or have spent about 7k~9k gold on items

When you see these sorts of things, it's time to sell those gold-per-5 items, because the game's only going to last a few more minutes anyway.


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YouAintNoNinja

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Member

12-29-2009

Hello? Are these the forums? Cool, I'm just going to set my E-Peen down over here.


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Cyatomorrow

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Senior Member

12-29-2009

This is silly, you shouldn't sell gold/s items unless you need the gold at that very moment to build another item, or if your inventory is full.

Avarice Blades are also good right up to end-game, the heroes that get them will always benefit from the crit. They shouldn't be sold until they can be replaced.

That being said, it's safe to sell Philo late game for Elixir, and Doran's Blade doesn't belong in anyone's inventory at any time.


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LiFTeDyourFACE

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Keep the Stone unless you need the extra slots <---my opinion :P


Quote:
Originally Posted by Morzas View Post
If you have a Philosopher's Stone in your endgame items, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of that item's purpose.ear

That's like saying if you still have a beer bottle in your hand at the end of a bar fight - you have a fundamental misunderstanding of that item's purpose. A beer bottle is useful "early game" and "end game" even after the guns are drawn


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