Rate my Trist build

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MeanBean

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Just finished my last game for today with malady, berserker greaves, cleaver and starks last. Worked out well and won despite their yi getting big at the end.

Will try starks as first item tomorrow, but I feel like I need something more than "just" attack speed as my first item. By the time I finish malady, trist has a base damage of like 80-90. The malady debuff adds 30 damage each hit for every hero hitting your target which is alot if you think about it. The armor reduction from starks is really sweet but from the way armor scales I assumed that armor reduction gave better payoff later in the game.


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Klazzix

Senior Member

12-29-2009

You can try either:

Starks + Black cleaver

or

Last Whisper + Infinity Edge

Personally I think both ways have their ups and downs but back when I used to play Trist I find the Starks + Black Cleaver combo to work best cause like you, I always prioritize the attack speed boost skill meaning more procs for the Cleaver although the second combo with last whisper is much more stable and works kind of better if you're equipped with Critical Chance runes/masteries. Also the armor reduction you get from Starks is really nice, it's already a big chunk against squishies.

SotD is kind of unreliable since you have to activate its armor pen./accuracy thing and only lasts for a few secs.


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Basilisk9466

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Armour debuff late as opposed to early...

Ok, this is going to be a bit simplistic, but suppose you're going against (for the sake of argument) a tank-speccing Nasus. Since that usually means Warmogs first, no armour bonus. Let's say you're equal level, and you have Starks at lvl 8.

At lvl 8, Nasus has 43 armour, which is 30% damage reduction. Throw in the Starks debuff, and he's down to 18 armour, which is 15% damage reduction. Lvl 8 Trist with no AD has 66 damage, so that's either 46 or 56 respectively.

Now suppose you left it until last, and we're now at level 18. Suppose Nasus has around 200 armour - that's 75% damage reduction. Add in Starks debuff, that's 175, which means 64% damage reduction.

A lvl 18 Trist can rack up 200 damage a shot with ease, so throwing the numbers in, that gives 50 or 72 respectively.

You can make arguments either way, to be honest. Bear in mind that if you have Exhaust as a spell (I go Flash and either Exhaust or Ignite), throw that in along with the Starks debuff and you can make someone's armour negative quite easily early game if they haven't been rushing armour. The other thing to remember is that Starks helps your survivability in general - apart from maxed out BT, it has the highest lifesteal out there, and 30/5 health regen isn't too shabby. That's also a a nice aura if you're tagteaming with other people, whether as a full-on ganksquad or just helping defend a tower.

As for wanting more than just attack speed, I always remember that Tristana has three stages, and you can only really mitigate them, not change them.

1. Early game. Here, you're a terror - Explosive shot might be a debuff rather than a nuke, but who else can spit out 100 damage right off the bat, with decent range, at lvl 1? Ranking that up fast, rocket jump for a finisher/escape, and using explosive's passive to punish any squishy too close to their own creeps, makes her very dangerous early on.
2. Mid game. Here, she sucks. There's not really any way to avoid it, or not that I've discovered. Your damage is all right, but casters can out-nuke you with ease - your debuff maxes at 200, when Nunu can do double that and slow for the same skill investment. Your damage shouldn't be ignored, but it's not earth shattering. You don't have any disables (Teemo's blinding dart and shrooms, Ashe's frost shot and crystal arrow) and your mana isn't high enough to justify spamming rapid fire all the time. Your best bet is to either run with the pack, or stick to solidly laning.
3. Late game. You've managed to afford attack items, your damage can outmatch almost anyone you face thanks to rapid fire, explosive makes heals useless, rocket is a great chaser/escape, and buster has many a possibility.

The thing about Tristana is that all she needs to be a good laner is attack speed and explosive shot - you wait for your creeps to wear them down a bit, then you can 'chain react' all the creeps with explosive shot. Higher damage helps, but you might miss a creep while 'reloading', and up to 150 damage AoE is far better than anything you can do, unless you grab Tiamat or something. That's why I leave cleaver/thirster/whatever until afterwards. I've tried Emblem -> Malady -> Thirster in the past, which worked, but somehow early Starks feels more effective.


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MeanBean

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Armor scales linearly even if it doesnt look that way. If a hero is taking 100 damage per second, then every point of armor added increases his longevity by the exact same amount of time no matter how much you already have.

And since you have more hp later than early (duh), then I would assume that armor reduction cuts off more effective hp later since it is % based. Remember that it doesnt matter if they have 30 or 130 armor.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Yeah I also disagree with the catalyst. I like to go something like this:

Sword + HP Pot
2 Avarice Blades
->Berserker
Berserks Grieves
Infinitie's Edge

I also think going Rapid Fire first is a good choice. It allows you to not waste money on attack speed items and just go pure damage/crit. Also since I get the avarice blades I don't need explosive shot as much for farming. My Skills go something like:

Explosive Shot
Rocket Jump
Rapid Shot
Rapid Shot
Rapid Shot
Buster
(Then max Buster -> Rapid -> and then decide between explosive or rocket jump depending on what the game is like)

I find that rocket jumping onto someone and then hitting rapid shot is far more effective than landing a more leveled up explosive shot.


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MeanBean

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Not really that interested in skill-builds. And you gotta max rocket jump if you want early game kills because you dont have the damage to benefit from rapid fire without any items.

And straight infinity edge after some gold items? I dont want to be completely gimped in early/midgame.

Catalyst works great as a starting item IF you plan on finishing banshee veil later in the game. Say you are up against fiddle, ryze and veigar.


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Basilisk9466

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
Yeah I also disagree with the catalyst. I like to go something like this:

Sword + HP Pot
2 Avarice Blades
->Berserker
Berserks Grieves
Infinitie's Edge

I also think going Rapid Fire first is a good choice. It allows you to not waste money on attack speed items and just go pure damage/crit. Also since I get the avarice blades I don't need explosive shot as much for farming. My Skills go something like:

Explosive Shot
Rocket Jump
Rapid Shot
Rapid Shot
Rapid Shot
Buster
(Then max Buster -> Rapid -> and then decide between explosive or rocket jump depending on what the game is like)

I find that rocket jumping onto someone and then hitting rapid shot is far more effective than landing a more leveled up explosive shot.
There are several reasons why I have severe doubts about early maxing rapid shot and ignoring AS items, but they boil down to three key points.

1. Your ability to harass goes out the window. While rapid fire might give you a damage boost, if you're against someone with any kind of CC, you have a problem - you just wasted a good chunk of mana, probably took some damage, and had no way to counter. Teemo in particular would eat you alive simply by blinding - you either stick around and get peppered by darts, or you retreat. Either way, you've wasted mana and lost a skirmish.
2. Mana becomes a critical issue. Tristana's mana kind of sucks - I've run out end-game at times even though she's not exactly an ability spam champ. Early game, if you're relying on an active ability for farming and harassing, soon you won't be able to use it.
3. Your farming is a lot less effective. Even if you grabbed Golem buff to get around the mana issue, you only have your buff half the time (a third of the time without), and you're still missing the most important aspect - the explosive chain reaction. Trist shouldn't need AS to farm, she just picks her shots to cripple chains of creeps with explosive's passive.

Of course, maxed rapid shot can kick out a lot of damage, so your skill set could arguably help mitigate the poor midgame that an explosive maxed Trist has. I don't feel that that's worth the poor early game, though. Conceivably getting one rank of rocket and alternating rapid and explosive could work as a compromise.

Edit: Just noticed the remark about armour being linear. Thanks, that helps put it in perspective a bit - it's not the automatic way of thinking about it.


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MeanBean

Senior Member

12-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilisk9466 View Post
Edit: Just noticed the remark about armour being linear. Thanks, that helps put it in perspective a bit - it's not the automatic way of thinking about it.
Yup, most people dont know it. Every armor point or resist point gives you 1% more effective hitpoints. So 100 armor means you double your hitpoints because you get 50% damage reduction. 200 armor triples your hp because you have 66% reduction. The fact that 0 -> 50 seems so much larger than 50 -> 66 is an illusion of math in this case

Starks 30 armor reduction would then matter more late game, no? Still, will try starks first and see how it works out when I get home.


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