so, why does warmogs armour suck again?

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Fifthdawn

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Senior Member

12-22-2010

A lot of the people here don't have a full understanding of how EHP works. They only understand it at the VERY BASIC level. You need a both resist and health.

Warmogs is an amazing items.

First you have to understand armor works off your current max HP and hp is effected by armor.

Yes at 2000 base health, 100 armor would increase your EHP by 2000.

But if you already have 100 armor. Another 100 armor would only increase by 2000, because your current health is still 2000.

However, if you have 100 armor and you get a warmogs, thats 2600 EHP increase.

I won't go into all the math because most people should be able to understand how the 100 armor is acting on the 1300 health you gain from Warmogs.

Here's another note, you gain more EHP from HP items at early levels than resistance because you have low health and high natural resist. Health also provides EHP against both magical and physical instead of just one or the other.

For anyone who think warmogs sucks, I challenge them give me a 5 item combination (6 if you want to include boots) with the highest EHP you can achieve without Warmogs, and I garentee I can come up with a combination with Warmogs in it thats ATLEAST 2X HIGHER in EHP than your combination.


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Carados

Senior Member

12-22-2010

Except the problem is still being a fat sack of EHP is worthless to a team.


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Fifthdawn

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12-22-2010

First it was to counter all those who are doing the math wrong on EHP to increase my validity

Second I never said stack all \Warmogs. I made it clear that you need BOTH resist and health items. You only really need about 2-3 of the defense item's effects/passive/ability, etc. There is ALWAYS room for a atleast one Warmogs. and that would increase your EHP significantlly. I'm not talking about baby sh!t, I'm talking about 6000-7000 EHP. Thats about the same as your TOTAL EHP gain stacking ALL RESIST. One item doubles your EHP? I think its worth it.

The HP regen on warmogs is just cherry on top. Poking happens before team fights all the time. Warmog is not a bad item, its a misunderstood item. Majority of people who say Warmog sucks doesn't understand how EHP really works. The large amount of EHP gain from just one warmog would outweigh the cost of any "5th item" effect you were going to get.


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ForeverLaxx

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12-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazikarl View Post
Here is the really bad thing about Warmogs.

Lets do your level 12 Teemo. But lets say that he is facing a level 12 Trist with Madreds.

Trist has a base damage of 81 at that level. Against Warmogs, she will do 218 damage (30+81+.04*2677) a shot. Against GA, she does 163 damage (30+81+.04*1307) - both these are done before mitigation from armor/MR. Thats a 33% increase in damage (BEFORE EVEN CONSIDERING RESISTS) just because you chose to use Warmogs. Ouch.

So yeah, Warmogs has a counter item which is common and very powerful anyway, while GA and the like dont really. Thats in addition to all the other objections above.



Sure, but if you built Warmogs AND a source of MR like FoH...well, thats a hell of a lot of gold and you still dont have any armor. This is really the problem - you want armor to take care of the DPSs (which are the main threats to tanks anyway as I argued above), but now you build two VERY expensive items that dont get you to that goal at all. But yeah, Warmogs really forces you to build stuff like FoH, which forces you into a bad situation where you probably are going to be hardpressed for armor for games of reasonable lengths.

Most tanks would rather just not worry about MR much and go with armor and all the really strong other effects on items like Randuins, Sunfires, Aegis, GA etc.
I'm not going to go into the debate on whether or not Warmog's is a good or bad choice, but I'm just going to point out something here regarding your assumptions.

After someone buys Warmog's, all DPS on the opposite team are likely to build towards a Madreds. This is expected and a safe assumption. This is where you fall short: you assume they're completing a final item for their MR. Competent players won't do that in most cases because competent players know that it will take time to build that Bloodrazor to counter you (assuming they didn't start one when looking at your starting build). Competent players know they have to cover their armor as well. And how do they do that?

---they buy a Negatron Cloak and then Chainmail. 1440g, total. You wouldn't claim 1440g is a hard number to reach would you, especially for someone planning to max a Warmog's? There is no rule that say you must upgrade an item to your intended goal before working on the next, so why does everyone assume people are going to do that?

Again, I'm not getting into a "is Warmog's worth it debate" here, I'm just saying that smart players will suppliment their Warmogs with a Negatron and a Chainmail, with plans to upgrade them later.

Is that so hard to understand?


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Fifthdawn

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12-22-2010

I would also like to add to the MBR on Warmog argument.

1.) Saying MBR makes Warmog useless is like saying LW/VS makes resistance useless.

2.) ALL characters have a MINIMUM of natural 30 magic resist even at level 1 and some characters ranges up to 50+.

3.) Most people who get MBR are not those who get magic pen.

4.) 30 MR is 23% reduction. 50MR is a 33% reduction. The effect of BR is only doing 2.5%-3% HP per hit. This assumes the bare minimum MR. This isn't even counting the 6 you get from masteries in the defensive tree, not counting the 4% reduction in damage in the defense tree, not counting the MR glyphs tanks get.

5.) If you react to Warmogs with about 3000gold item, a simple 700ish gold item can negate almost the majority of the effect stacking with your base MR.

This is taken from another post

"How, exactly, does having a Warmog's Armor mean that you will die any faster to Madred's Bloodrazor than if you don't have it?

I can understand that statement if and only if you assume that the person with the Warmog's Armor doesn't have (or intend to get) Magic Resistance to offset the Madred's Bloodrazor, but otherwise, I'm obviously missing the logic behind this seemingly universal assumption.

Now, based on the math I've learned in my lifetime, I can surmise that 4% is 1/25th of 100%. That means it would take (without additional damage being calculated) 25 hits to kill a champion.

How does this change based on your total health?

4% of 2000 is 1/25th of 2000.
4% of 3000 is 1/25th of 3000.
4% of 9,718,972 is 1/25th of 9,718,972.

So, whether you have 2000 HP or 3000 HP, or even 19,000,000 HP, Madred's Bloodrazor will always chip away 1/25th of your HP with its on-hit effect.

According to my calculations, then, the only factor that will increase the potency of Madred's Bloodrazor is Attack Speed (on the champ with the Bloodrazor) and MgPen vs. MgRes.

Assuming that much is correct, the only valid argument to be made is that Tristana will, if you don't purchase a Warmog's, simply not buy Madred's Bloodrazor because you're easy enough to kill without it. If you have high HP, Madred's Bloodrazor becomes a necessity. If you have low HP and only stack Armor/MR, she would instead pick up a Last Whisper, which costs significantly less gold, and own you in the face anyway.

Assuming again that my math is correct, having more HP (in conjunction with the Armor and/or MR that you stack thereafter) would mean that, even though you're losing 1/25th of your HP per hit from Madred's Bloodrazor, all other incoming damage has a significantly smaller impact on your total HP percentage.

So, someone please explain to me why Madred's Bloodrazor kills you faster if you get a Warmog's Armor if there is a reason aside from, "Because you didn't buy Magic Resist, which would have lowered the damage from Madred's Bloodrazor," or, "Because they wouldn't have bought Madred's Bloodrazor if you didn't buy Warmog's Armor."

If there is no reason aside from those two, then I feel I can do little more than state, once again, that buying Warmog's Armor does not mean that you will not have high resistances. In fact, it's the very opposite. Buying Warmog's Armor serves the purpose of securing a large HP bar so that you can focus - thereafter - on nothing but increasing your Armor, MR and overall utility."

Bloodrazor is just as deadly on tanks with or without Warmogs. The mitigation is still applied to both the actual physical damage and the effect of bloodrazor. The 1/25th is before ANY mitigation. Now the damage that isn't part of the 4% is effected by mitigation as well. Having higher EHP means that the damage that isn't by bloodrazor is actually doing LESS damage to your overall EHP.


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DoransTroll

Senior Member

12-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
Because HP regeneration is a worthless stat in team fights. You're paying a few hundred gold so they can pay tens of gold to negate the regen.

Edit: Regrowth pendant is 2.8 HP a second for 475 gold. Long Sword is over about 5 damage per second (after armor) for 415 gold. It just gets worse the more gold you spend on it. It takes about 2x as much gold to outpace damage scaling, ignoring that carries often have better creep kills then you would.
Unlike DPSers whose job is to leave the fight at almost full health, a good tank will always leave the fight with relatively low HP. Tanks cannot regain HP via life drain. Tanks need regen. It might not be "useful" as a combat stat, but it makes all the difference for you to keep pushing at the end of the fight.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-22-2010

The only valid argument against getting Warmog's is it's lack of utility. That's it. For that reason alone, it is not ideal for many champions who need the extra utility to become more useful to the team.

At this very moment, the only champion on my repertoire that can justify building Warmog's, is Rammus, because he's already stocked to the hilt with utility and has innately low HP for a tank - not to mention he can stack it very quickly with all of the assists he -should- be racking up.

I've built Warmog's, and then focus on Armor and MR, depending on what else I need (Randuin's and Banshee's, usually... but Warmog's opens up other options, like Abyssal Scepter, to increase his damage output).

The fact of the matter is that flat HP is incredibly powerful early game (why are Flat HP Quints so highly regarded?), when whole teams are not focusing you down and fights are relegated to small 2-3 man skirmishes and tower diving. Later on, middle to late game, the armor and MR, as well as the utility those items provide, are far more valuable.

Sometimes, at least in Normal Q, you face teams who don't have any %HP based attacks - building a single defensive item, loaded to the hilt with HP, may just be what you need to survive while your 4 other offensive items do all the dirty work.

It's situational. It's a niche item. There's no reason (anymore) that it should be relegated to "NEVER PURCHASE THIS, EVER!" status. It's the same as say, Last Whisper and Void Staff... which way too many include in a 'core' build. They're there for a specific purpose, and for that single purpose alone.


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GaspingTruth

Senior Member

12-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
The only valid argument against getting Warmog's is it's lack of utility. That's it. For that reason alone, it is not ideal for many champions who need the extra utility to become more useful to the team.
This is exactly right. While it does offer excellent survivability both in HP regen (for in-between minor fights/skirmishes) and EHP, it does not contribute otherwise in a team fight, which makes other items, at times, more desirable.

/thread.


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DrDragun

Senior Member

12-22-2010

This stupid myth needs to die. It's quite decent on several heroes especially when combined with Atma's Impaler. Not every game but in some situations when you can rush it. Sivir, Shen, Olaf, and Rammus could all be potential candidates for the Atma+Warmog combo. People are small minded and still hold onto an old prejudice from when you needed 100 creep kills after buying it to charge it up and make it cost worthy.


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Jericho Hill

Senior Member

12-22-2010

warmogs is a sweet item. i find i use it best however when it's at the end of my item build. I don't look at warmogs as an item that can turn a loss into a win. I look at it as an item that turns a 51% win into a 100% win. Warmogs "closes the door" so to speak. in my opinion don't rush it.


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