is warmogs ever usful?

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jokull

Senior Member

12-19-2010

warmogs is underrated since most people dont include the regen in math for fights over time. tanks can make a fight last much longer than it usually would, and keep dealing damage during the extra time that they will be alive. one of the reasons omen/locket/visage was nerfed was the regen abilities keeping them alive when they disengaged during a fight. warmogs isn't that significant, but a farmed warmogs however you look at it, is 1370 health, which will take anyone a while to get through


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OmniOmega

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Senior Member

12-19-2010

Madred's Bloodrazor also drastically skews Warmog's usefulness. Any carry with gamesense will rush a Madred's Bloodrazor if/when they see a Warmog's. Flat HP does nothing when you're losing 4% of it every shot.


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Fifthdawn

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Senior Member

12-19-2010

Okay for those who say Warmog is bad. I challenge anyone to give me any 6 item combination without Warmog, you can either choose to do it for BALANCE TEAM, or ALL PHYSICAL/MAGICAL and I will provide an item combination with higher EHP containing Warmog in it.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniOmega View Post
Madred's Bloodrazor also drastically skews Warmog's usefulness. Any carry with gamesense will rush a Madred's Bloodrazor if/when they see a Warmog's. Flat HP does nothing when you're losing 4% of it every shot.
This.

Also, it's extremely rare to get a situation where you're taking 50% physical 50% magical damage. Usually it's skewed in favor of one or the other. Setting aside Bloodrazor and obvious MR needs to avoid being shredded by it, you're still going to benefit more by building to counter specific forms of damage than by trying to become an overweight damage sponge, which is what you end up with by stacking Warmogs for defence. Unless of course, it is late game and you have a good amount of MR and/or armor already. But many tanks seek damage output by that point so they can, you know. Actually be a threat. Because big walking sacks of hp and regen get ignored since they're not dangerous enough to be worth killing, yet take a while (without Bloodrazor).

As for carries, usually they benefit FAR more from the spell block of a Banshees (since that by itself can absorb a ton of damage), or the self-rez of a GA, and so on.

While it looks nice on paper, in practise it's really not a smart item pick unless you have a very specific item plan in mind (ie, you are going warmogs + atma and can farm them both quickly enough that you don't flop due to being too weak until both are completed). Or, as I noted, as a late game luxury item for tanks.


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Fifthdawn

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Senior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniOmega View Post
Madred's Bloodrazor also drastically skews Warmog's usefulness. Any carry with gamesense will rush a Madred's Bloodrazor if/when they see a Warmog's. Flat HP does nothing when you're losing 4% of it every shot.
And Last Whisper/Void stay skews the usefulness of resist items. Most people have a natural magic resist of 30 minimum, and 50 average. Bloodrazors 4% is not as much asyou think it is. Most people who get bloodrazor don't get magic pen. At 30 minumum, thats 23% less damage already from bloodrazor, at 50 average, tahts 33%!!!

You need BOTH reist and health items to get the highest possible EHP and warmog is the single highest health item in the game. Resist and health works like side A and B on area of a rectangle, you need both.

Armor gives EHP by 1% for each point based on current health. Health is effected by the armor a tank has. THe more resist you have, the more valuable health becomes, much like the more health you have the more valuable resist becomes.


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eeri

Junior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniOmega View Post
Madred's Bloodrazor also drastically skews Warmog's usefulness. Any carry with gamesense will rush a Madred's Bloodrazor if/when they see a Warmog's. Flat HP does nothing when you're losing 4% of it every shot.
Yes, because a tank will NEVER buy ANYTHING with magic resist...


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-19-2010

I've been testing Warmog's on Rammus recently, and for a few reasons.

1) It was recently changed to scale off of assists, which I get tons of since I make it a point to actively feed my team.

2) Defensive Ball Curl gives a huge chunk of mitigation, making every point of HP that much more valuable for its duration

3) Rammus has innately low HP for a tank, so while I use that as my sole HP item, I back it up with heavy mitigation (ie. Randuin's Omen).

At this point in time I won't say it's the 'optimal' build for Rammus, but it certainly gets you to a heavy tank status very quickly thanks to DBC. Of course, you pass up on other passives early, such as Randuin's Omen CDR and Active, or Banshee's spell shield.


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Fifthdawn

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Senior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
I've been testing Warmog's on Rammus recently, and for a few reasons.

1) It was recently changed to scale off of assists, which I get tons of since I make it a point to actively feed my team.

2) Defensive Ball Curl gives a huge chunk of mitigation, making every point of HP that much more valuable for its duration

3) Rammus has innately low HP for a tank, so while I use that as my sole HP item, I back it up with heavy mitigation (ie. Randuin's Omen).

At this point in time I won't say it's the 'optimal' build for Rammus, but it certainly gets you to a heavy tank status very quickly thanks to DBC. Of course, you pass up on other passives early, such as Randuin's Omen CDR and Active, or Banshee's spell shield.
I main Rammus, and I've done the most research on EHP and Warmog for the longest time and you'll see me actively defending Warmog on these boards. I can tell you both mathematically and from experience, that Warmog is definately worthly on Rammus and I would argue most if not all tanks.


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M4nTiCoR3

Senior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Madred's Bloodrazor also drastically skews Warmog's usefulness. Any carry with gamesense will rush a Madred's Bloodrazor if/when they see a Warmog's. Flat HP does nothing when you're losing 4% of it every shot.
This is absolute bunk as many have already pointed out. Even with the optimal case of a late game carry taking WM and sitting at around 3k HP with 50MR from Merc's...the net damage you actual infflict is somewhere around 80 Magic Damage per swing...which hardly comes out to 4% of my life. Lets say your a WW dealing 200 phsyical damage plus the extra 4% from madreds. That comes out to an adjusted DPS of 191 damage per swing. At that rate it would take you around 16 swings of pure autoattack in a 1v1 to drop me in a fight when all I have is 3k HP 80AR and 50MR. It's about the same as IE, after calculating in meaninful crit chance, which takes about 20 swings if i never crit once druing the same scenario, but a lot fewer if i do.

Madred's Razor is a vbery expensive item...a far cry 800 gold more than Warmogs to begin with. If they want to try to counter me with an item that cost 800 gold more to buy and offers limited gains against me over any other offensive item in the game...be my guest. Hope that madreds doesnt F!@# up your precious build order, as it blows in comparison to other items on so many champs, with only a selct few really benifiting from the numbers it gives.

Quote:
Also, it's extremely rare to get a situation where you're taking 50% physical 50% magical damage.
Its much less rare than you think. Looking back at my match history at the damage revieved, its alomst always withn a 60/40 split in my experince. That is close enough to justify my numbers. It rarely goes out to an 80/20 slit or worse, which is roughly the point the other items i mentione become better options...but its easy enough to figure out the games where this is likely to happen as soon as you begin loading the game and can see who your up against.

Quote:
As for carries, usually they benefit FAR more from the spell block of a Banshees (since that by itself can absorb a ton of damage), or the self-rez of a GA, and so on.
This is really subjective if not all together fallacious. The spell block on BV is certainly a great bonus vs many teams, but its not like they wont have somene who can drop it with a low protiorty spell before they attack you. Also, if you have proper CC and intiatior/tanks...its completely moot to begin with. You shoudlnt be able to be focues by CC if your team is playing proper roles with you as a teams carry.

In my experince, GA's beneift is utterly worthless. It makes you die, then get focused down by CC as soon as you rez. I have almsot never seen it actual work in a manne rthat the person who dies with it actual gest away after they rez or even is able to live long enough to score a kill before getting focused to death. Maybe im just unucky, but i never see it happen...on myself or anyone else who ever buys it. Not saying it cant happen...i just dont see it happen is all.


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biomorph

Senior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
I've been testing Warmog's on Rammus recently, and for a few reasons...
I did some testing as well and I must say that I stopped since HP alone does close to nothing for Rammus. Sure when you use DBC it's fun but it does not last that long =/
I went back to rushing HoG and then Upgrade to Omen. Omen is just a fantastic item for Rammus (even after nerf) as it can extend your PB snare or used as a replace when it is on cool down and the massive armor makes you hurt them squishies. I learned some while back that just being tanky is not enough, you need to pose at least some threat to the enmy team as well to put them in a catch 22 situation.

I rush Warmogs on Shen however since with his passive you can really hurt and some 'W' abuse can make up for the lack of mitigation.

So Warmogs has it's uses indeed but what the very nice graph here does not show is how much it helps anyone beyond getting a lot of HP and lets face it, it's not a cheap item. So by getting a Warmogs on, say Rammus, your item progression curve cripples your effectiveness for a long period of time and if your team gets a bad start it's pretty much betting all of it and loose. that is at least the experiences I've had.

I do not advocate NOT using Warmogs, in fact I like it a lot, but there is often more to consider than getting tons of EHP.