is warmogs ever usful?

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Talpostal

Member

12-19-2010

If I'm playing Sivir as a carry (as opposed to aura build) I sometimes get it as my fifth item and then get Atma's at my 6th.

Also, if I'm playing a tank late game and already have a bunch of Armor/MR, I'll get a Warmog's as my 5th or 6th item because +1000HP is way better than +3% damage mitigation.


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Lucky Loki

Senior Member

12-19-2010

Any champ that has a passive that works off of health is a good choice such as Vlad/Shen/Gragas


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Talpostal

Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by gap81 View Post
People with opinions and no proof to back them up bother me. Warmogs is one of the most viable defensive items in the game right now from a purely defesnive stand point against any team with a semblence of balaced damage output. I know this because i have written a program that calculates every major defensive items EHP for every possible in game scenario you can think of....
Hey, interesting!
Why is Force of Nature rated so low? I play tanks a lot and I've always thought that Aegis was the worst core tank item for late game because the stats it provides you are pretty small compared to other late game items and by late game the defensive boost it gives your teammates isn't nearly as strong as it was early/mid-game. Having dual resists on one item is nice but +76 MR seems better to me than +79 split between armor and MR and the aura effect.


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Fifthdawn

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Senior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by gap81 View Post
People with opinions and no proof to back them up bother me. Warmogs is one of the most viable defensive items in the game right now from a purely defesnive stand point against any team with a semblence of balaced damage output. I know this because i have written a program that calculates every major defensive items EHP for every possible in game scenario you can think of.

Based on a baseline scenario of an end game carry with no defensive items...I made a graph of the most common endgame items they might take to help them survive and their net EHP gains from those items. This graph shows the EHP gains for each item when that carry starts with a baseline of 80 AR and 30 MR before purchase. Thier starting HP is listed at the bottom of the graph, and accounts for variation in champions HP totals at level 18, such as Cho'Gath, but most champs will have between 1700-2000 HP at level 18 when excluding other non-defensive HP items like Frozen Mallet.

You can clearly see from the graph..WM is one of the top choices against balanced damage. I listed a fully farmed one as WM*, also in green. The break even point for a fully farmed WM* is well above the normally achievable HP totals for most carries, even with HP items, and even for most champs in the game. The fact that it is now easier than ever to farm it up, due to enemy kills AND assist adding 10% of the bonus each time...means even as a late game purchase it grows quickly. A few team fight victories and you can easliy have 50% of the buff right there. Add in some minion farming and its just too easy to max it out not to consider the fully farmed potential when discussing it as well.

Adding additional AR/MR before calculating the EHP of the item only moves it higher and higher above the other items listed. For instance, if you traditionally take Merc Treads or have scaling MR that would be raise it to 50-80MR instead of the baseline of 30MR i used...WM gets even better than the listed numbers show here. The only thing that lowers its effectiveness as an endgame item is taking other items that already add significant HP, and even then it probably surpasses most other items after it is farmed up.

The 2 major exceptions to WM being the best defensive item in game are when teams are focusing in one damage type or the other on you. In that case RO(physical) and BV(magical) both outshine a fully farmed WM at about 2,500 HP before purchase, with significant gains over WM the higher your HP total is above the 2.5k mark.

The other thing to consider is non-defensive attributes that items often provide. WM only adds Hp5 in additon to the massive number of HP you get. Some champions benfit more from other stats, and thus find the added EHP of Warmogs less effective than slightly less EHP when paired with other beneficial stats from a different item.

Finally, another item worth mentioning is AoL...which for its cost, offers incredible EHP value and team support to boot. It kind of gets lost in the graph, but its EHP/gold are second to none. As a purely defensive item however, when considering flat EHP totals...a WM is a very solid choice...and the fully farmed WM* truely has no equal.
Very good info. I love how people downvote us because they disagree without math to back it up.


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Subdue

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Senior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talpostal View Post
Hey, interesting!
Why is Force of Nature rated so low? I play tanks a lot and I've always thought that Aegis was the worst core tank item for late game because the stats it provides you are pretty small compared to other late game items and by late game the defensive boost it gives your teammates isn't nearly as strong as it was early/mid-game. Having dual resists on one item is nice but +76 MR seems better to me than +79 split between armor and MR and the aura effect.
His analysis assumes a balanced team, and by that he means that the damage is roughly 50% AD and 50% AP. In other words:

Overall EHP = (AD EHP + AP EHP)/2

Under that scenario, the +270 Health from AoL goes a long way in terms of EHP since it affects both.

In practice however, Armor is more important than Magic Resist against even a balanced team. Casters (who do the bulk of AP damage), will usually blow their load and then have a lull in their damage output, where as AD champions will have sustained high damage over the course of a fight. Banshee's Veil can cut that burst from casters too, making stacked magic resist an even poorer choice. That's not to say that you'll never stack magic resist. But against a balanced team, Banshees Veil and perhaps Mercury Treads and stacked Armor are usually your best bet.


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Wumpus Yob

Junior Member

12-19-2010

I used to think warmogs was a terrible item for vlad but it's actually pretty good.

In addition to the hp (and ap), it significantly boosts his pool damage and the regen makes it easier to always have 4 stacks on tides.


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BuddhazBounty

Senior Member

12-19-2010

I have a friend who builds warmogs + atma's on nasus. I can't remember the rest of his build but it syns nicely and he does very well. He sometimes finishes with frozen mallet


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eeri

Junior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvrainbows View Post
not at all
If you're playing DPS mundo, sure, it's not useful.

But a spirit visage + 2 warmogs and merc treads, mundo can turret dive, tank the turret so your team wipes the floor with the other, and get out if needed.

If this can't be done, either the other team was fed waaay too much (double digit kills on 2+ champs) or your team blows.


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M4nTiCoR3

Senior Member

12-19-2010

Quote:
Why is Force of Nature rated so low? I play tanks a lot and I've always thought that Aegis was the worst core tank item for late game because the stats it provides you are pretty small compared to other late game items and by late game the defensive boost it gives your teammates isn't nearly as strong as it was early/mid-game.
FoN isnt really rated that low at all. The main reason it appears low in this graph is because it is calculateing 50% of the damage as physical...which FoN provides absolutely no EHP against. My graph that shows pure Magical damage dealt has FoN ranked much higher. The reason Aegis of Legion is such a strong item against more balanced teams is because it offers Resistance to both WITH HP. Those HP are effected not only by the reist of the item, but also by your own natural AR/MR...making the gains much ore than the ~250 HP they state up front. So much so in fact that they out perfom Gaurdian Angel as a balanced defensive item until you get something like 2,700 HP...at which point the higher resist are working on more HP to provide more EHP.

Think of your survivability as the Area of a Square/Rectangle...with your AR/MR making up one side and your HP the other side. The best way to maximize the area of that shape is to have some kind of balance bewteen the two. Adding too much of one or the other provides deminishing returns. In this game, the balance of the 2 is harder to calculate because they ue differing mathematical formulas for adding EHP to your champion...but it is possible with the right excel spreadsheet...which i happend to have made.


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sTicky916

Senior Member

12-19-2010

all i know is once i get a WM as my 3rd item on singed, im practically impossible to kill