Katarina new numbers

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Py37K98WBhtcHciP

Member

12-15-2010

Katarina – by the numbers

* PLEASE NOTIFY IF YOU SEE ANY ERRORS SO I CAN UPDATE* (thanks Cerys)

Hey guys, I thought I would post some numbers on item combinations for the latest Kat in relation to her ult. These will be based on the more popular items, so DFG, Haunting guise and Liches bane will not be included into this.

NOTE - This is only looking at the damage/gold ratios, each item obviously has other benefits, such as survivability, cc mr etc - it is to get a rough idea on the damage on each item, to then contemplate if the added survivabilit/cc/mr etc is worth it for the total price. It is just a little numbers guide to look through and possibly may give you ideas how to best utilise and balance damage with MR/CC/survivability etc. I cannot possible calculate how much damage/difference each of these abilities will do, as it depends on the game itself and I didn't think it was worth mentioning that abyssal has MR, rylai has slow, LB has a proc etc, because we all know this.


===Items=== 1 AP = 0.30 damage, 1 AD = 0.55 damage

NLD – 1600 gold
Damage to Lotus - 24
Gold/damage on ult – 66.67

B.F Sword – 1850
Damage to Lotus – 27.5
Gold/damage on ult – 67.27

Mejai Soulstealer
This is arranged by AP from Mejai, damage to Lotus, gold/damage
20 6 205.83
28 8.4 147.02
36 10.8 114.35
44 13.2 93.56
52 15.6 7 9.17
60 18 68.61
68 20.4 60.54
76 22.8 54.17
84 25.2 4 9.01
92 27.6 4 4.75
100 30 41.17
108 32.4 38.12
116 34.8 35.49
124 37.2 33.20
132 39.6 31.19
140 42 29.40
148 44.4 27.82
156 46.8 26.39
164 49.2 25.10
172 51.6 23.93
180 54 22.87



Hextech Gunblade – 3625
Damage to Lotus – 55.5
Gold/damage on ult – 65.32

Rylais - 3105
Damage to Lotus - 24
Gold/damage on ult - 129.38

Guinsoos Rageblade - 2235
This is arranged by charges, damage to ult and gold/damage
0 32.75 68.24
1 34.55 64.69
2 36.35 61.49
3 38.15 58.58
4 39.95 55.94
5 41.75 53.53
6 43.55 51.32
7 45.35 49.28
8 47.15 47.40

Void Staff - 2295
Damage to Lotus - 21
Gold per damage - 109.29

Abyssal Sceptre - 2650
Damage to lotus - 21
Gold per damage - 126.20

Bloodthirster - 3200
Damage to Lotus at 0 stacks - 33
Damage to Lotus at max stacks - 55
Middle point damage - 44 damage
Gold per damage at 0 stacks - 96.97
Gold per damage at max stacks - 58.18
Gold per damage at mid point - 72.73

Zhonya - 3460
Damage to Lotus - 45
Gold per damage - 76.89

Black Cleaver - 3065
Damage to Lotus - 41.25
Gold per damage - 74.30


So, in terms of ranking, it goes like this (excluding stack based items)

1 - Hextech Gunblade after the change, now comes at rank 1 with 65.32 gold per damage
2 - Needlessly large rod gives a lot of bang for buck, with a damage point for only 66.67 gold.
3 - B.F Sword at 67.27 gold per damage
4 - Black cleaver at 74.30
5 - Zhonyas comes at third with 76.89 gold per damage
6 - Void staff at 109.29
7 - Abyssal at 126.20
8 - Rylai at 129.38


Now, as for the stacks, we can see that

MEJAI'S, at 5 stacks comes up at an impressive 68.61 gold per damage, almost getting 1st place, which it does easily with 6 stack and onwards. You are able to even go as low as 22.87 gold per damage point with this. I think this item should be considered a core, it doesn't offer the utility/survivability, but with a gold/damage point so cheap, it seems like a must.


Guinsoos Rageblade, surprisingly is not bad, even at 0 stack you are looking at 68.24 gold per damage, which would come at ~3rd place, almost 2nd place. For such a cheap item, that is pretty good. With only 2 stacks, it actually reaches first place in terms of gold per damage. the IAS isn't too useful and it does require stacks to get to the full potential, but at max potential, you are getting a crazy 47.40 gold/damage - and the item itself is very cheap.

Bloodthirsters, without any stacks is not very good, coming at a hefty 96.97 gold per damage, but does work its way down to 58.18 at max stacks, which is at 1st place, but this does require 40 minion kills. You may actually require a guardian angel, to keep up with those stacks, but that only means another slot you used up which could go towards damage. I seriously think BT probably are overated, although technically, you can get the most damage output by spamming BT's, it is way too stack dependant. Black cleavers, at slightly cheaper, but more consistent damage, may be something to look at, despite the -armour debuff which isn't too useful.

Well, that is it, you will have to of course, now, factor in how much the side effects of items are worth to you - such as the slow of Rylai, the MR of abyssal/void staff, the hextechs leeches/slow and of course the build up costs.

My opinion as of now is, I think AD isn't very useful path now though and you are better off with AP, especially now with AP scaling on here Q.

Things that stick out for me:

o An early NDL pickup is probably very wise and cost efficient for early burst.
o Mejai has to be a core now on her
o Guinsoos rageblade is pretty good item now
o Hextech probably best all round item, even though it is high cost build up. It now provides the highest damage point possible/item slot.


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caution

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Very nice post.

I've been rushing gunblade on her and its a revelation, they have no escape from you due to both the stats it gives and the active nuke + slow.

Not to mention the spell vamp and life steal helping you regen between fights while farming.


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biomorph

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Interesting post and nice to see some numbers.
I have tried katarina in game a few times now with new changes so I'll just leave a few notes from my experience with it related to some of the items you list.
Number Guinsoos look good and it's really nice when you have the charges but I find that it's an unnecessary constraint to put on your self to charge it all the time before doing your lotus and this is mostly because before committing you do not auto attack much since you are better of keeping your distance and sparing your HP.
Hextech Gunblade and Mejai's are simply awesome. You get a bad ass lotus, shunpo and bouncing blade from those items alone and not to forget a nifty clicky nuke with snare.
Add a Rylai's they are pretty much screwed if they can not out damage you or interrupt lotus. Goes something like this, they see you coming keep their distance. You shoot them with hextech (which has a very nice range) and they get snared so they can not avoid your shunpoo which snares them further and now they get to feel the full duration of your lotus (if they live that long).
So apart from Hextech I build pretty much pure AP.


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Gunflame

Senior Member

12-15-2010

ummm... you are forgetting zhonya's passive.

zhonya+rylai= extra 20 AP.

Gunblade+zhonya = extra 19 AP

Since you can go NLG-> Gunblade->zhonya I'll take this as an "example" build:

Zhonya - 3460
Damage to Lotus - 59,15
Gold per damage - 58.50

vs

Hextech Gunblade – 3625
Damage to Lotus – 59.25
Gold/damage on ult – 61.18

In other words if you have the highest gold efficient damage build you get Gunblade+Zhonya.

Zhonya has never been a good first item (AP/goldwise). It is always a 2nd or a 3rd item.


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Alyzar

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
Zhonya has never been a good first item (AP/goldwise). It is always a 2nd or a 3rd item.
Untrue.

3 Doran's Rings into boots into Zhonyas is very strong on Morgana.. Unless you count 3 doran's rings as an "item".


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Garbages

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Junior Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoRunesNeccessar View Post

Now, as for the stacks, we can see that

MEJAI'S, at 5 stacks comes up at an impressive 58.81 gold per damage, almost getting 1st place, which it does easily with 6 stack and onwards. You are able to even go as low as 19.60 gold per damage point with this. I think this item should be considered a core, it doesn't offer the utility/survivability, but with a gold/damage point so cheap, it seems like a must.
You realize you can say that for any caster? Mejai's is a high efficiency item on any ap champ with enough stacks. You haven't shown that it's better on Kat than any other ap champ. Do you think that Mejai's is a core item on every caster?


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edenechoes

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Unless I'm mistaken, Death Lotus has a 0.3 AP ratio. Bouncing Blades has the new shiny 0.35 AP ratio.

So the gold ratios for your items are all slightly off. I didn't do all of them (some, like Void Staff, Abyssal Scepter, and Rylai's aren't ever purchased for just damage)

NLR: 66.67g / pt = 1600 / (80 * .3)
Mejai's (0 stacks): 205.83g / pt = 1235 / (20 * .3)
Mejai's (5 stacks): 68.60g / pt = 1235 / (60 * .3)
Mejai's (6 stacks): 60.54g / pt = 1235 / (68 * .3)
Mejai's (7 stacks): 54.16g / pt = 1235 / (76 * .3)
Mejai's (8 stacks): 49.00g / pt = 1235 / (84 * .3)
Mejai's (9 stacks): 44.74g / pt = 1235 / (92 * .3)
Mejai's (20 stacks): 22.87g / pt = 1235 / (180 * .3)
Hextech: 65.31g / pt = 3625 / (60 * .55 + 75 * .3)
Rageblade (0 stacks): 68.24g / pt = 2235 / (35 * .55 + 45 * .3)
Rageblade (1 stack): 64.69g / pt = 2235 / (19.25 + 13.5 + 1.8)
Rageblade (2 stacks): 61.49g / pt = 2235 / (32.75 + 3.6)
Rageblade (3 stacks): 58.58g / pt = 2235 / (32.75 + 5.4)
Rageblade (4 stacks): 55.94g / pt = 2235 / (32.75 + 7.2)
Rageblade (8 stacks): 47.40g / pt = 2235 / (32.75 + 14.4)


Zhonya's Ring (no extra AP): 76.89g / pt = 3,460 / (150 * .3)

That said, in base stats equating to damage versus gold cost, Hextech is still the second most efficient item in the game (behind Bloodthirster). Rageblade is more efficient than Hextech at a single stack, and more efficient than Bloodthirster at four stacks. Mejai's beats Hextech at six stacks, Bloodthirster at seven stacks, and a fully stacked Rageblade at nine stacks. The Zhonya's needs to give +5 damage from the passive (17 AP, requiring 68 external AP) before it's price competitive with most of the other items in the lineup.


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Py37K98WBhtcHciP

Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
ummm... you are forgetting zhonya's passive.

zhonya+rylai= extra 20 AP.

Gunblade+zhonya = extra 19 AP

Since you can go NLG-> Gunblade->zhonya I'll take this as an "example" build:

Zhonya - 3460
Damage to Lotus - 59,15
Gold per damage - 58.50

vs

Hextech Gunblade – 3625
Damage to Lotus – 59.25
Gold/damage on ult – 61.18

In other words if you have the highest gold efficient damage build you get Gunblade+Zhonya.

Zhonya has never been a good first item (AP/goldwise). It is always a 2nd or a 3rd item.
I didn't forget it, it is just it wasn't focused on, just like I didn't focus on Rylai slow, or magic penetration bonus damage etc. In any core build, I would of course advise you take a Zhonya.


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Py37K98WBhtcHciP

Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbages View Post
You realize you can say that for any caster? Mejai's is a high efficiency item on any ap champ with enough stacks. You haven't shown that it's better on Kat than any other ap champ. Do you think that Mejai's is a core item on every caster?
Not all heroes are assassin-type casters like Kat though. But tbh I do like mejai on a lot of caster/AP heroes. The main point of Mejai in this comparison is just to show how well it scales gold/damage wise vs other "Kat" items, as it is usually overlooked on Kat. I didn't actually want to make the argument that it is better on Kat, just that it has really good damage/gold ratio after merely 5 stacks.


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Cerys

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Senior Member

12-15-2010

Just to clarify, Kat only gets a .3 AP ratio on her ult, not .35 like you have listed. That lowers all of your AP numbers by a bit.


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