Zilean Chrono should send any hero back in time to their location/stats 5sec ago?

Yes, that's awesome! 12 24.00%
Maybe, but not sure 5 10.00%
No, I prefer the old boring way 33 66.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

[Spell Change] The NEW "Chrono Shift" [Zilean's Ultimate]

First Riot Post
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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-22-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aekero View Post
Sounds a bit op, can't imagine a double ult'ing karthus ;p
well, t hey could put a cap on it so cooldowns aren't reset if that is an issue. maybe they could just do for stats and location.


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Steel Stiletto

Senior Member

12-22-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEMEME670 View Post
Although this may create some lag when put into the system (the system has to constantly
save a state of your health/hp, and have five of these for each char (one per second) and then constantly delete old and useless ones.) It could be ok..I love his current one though.
Really? Why would they need to do it every second? They would only need to save the information if Zilean actually used his ult. I think it might be a bit OP though, cause it would make ganking super easy. Put it on someone, scare off his teammates, then kill him when he comes back.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-22-2009
1 of 2 Riot Posts

We thought about it when we designed him but didn't do it for a few reasons:
1) Muddy purpose. hard to figure out how to use it and when. This is the big one. You can think of all sorts of creative ways to use something like this -- but how often does it go roughly as planned, and how often does your head just spin, and how often are you disappointed? We don't like ults being disappointing.
2) Significant 'team screwing' potentially, where you can zap your teammate back into the enemy, or heal an enemy.
3) Technically hard to pull off -- what happens if the champion creates effects, kills things, died, etc. You have to put in a lot of cleanup rules, or simplifying rules. Also bloats RAM on the server and has the potential to add a lot of bugs. Easily a 50+ hours of engineering task for an ability, where the average one is 1-2 hours of support (really, most require 0, and some require 10)

A general design rule we follow here:


We prefer this:
An ability that when used poorly produces a mediocre effect, but which when used well, is uber

Over this:
An ability that when used poorly hurts you or your team, but when used well is uber


I feel that this rework falls into the second category, so it's against our design philosophy here.


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Woozl

Senior Member

12-22-2009

EDIT: Nevermind. Ignore this.


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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-22-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
We thought about it when we designed him but didn't do it for a few reasons:
1) Muddy purpose. hard to figure out how to use it and when. This is the big one. You can think of all sorts of creative ways to use something like this -- but how often does it go roughly as planned, and how often does your head just spin, and how often are you disappointed? We don't like ults being disappointing.
2) Significant 'team screwing' potentially, where you can zap your teammate back into the enemy, or heal an enemy.
3) Technically hard to pull off -- what happens if the champion creates effects, kills things, died, etc. You have to put in a lot of cleanup rules, or simplifying rules. Also bloats RAM on the server and has the potential to add a lot of bugs. Easily a 50+ hours of engineering task for an ability, where the average one is 1-2 hours of support (really, most require 0, and some require 10)

A general design rule we follow here:


We prefer this:
An ability that when used poorly produces a mediocre effect, but which when used well, is uber

Over this:
An ability that when used poorly hurts you or your team, but when used well is uber


I feel that this rework falls into the second category, so it's against our design philosophy here.
Okay, at least you guys already looked that idea over. when i first thought of this i thought "how can they not have already thought of this? this is awesome"

what if it had limits so those questionable things can't even take place?

just seems like such a waste of a good idea.. surely something can be done.

like: affects only mana, hp and location

and yea, i have thought about how you can screw over your own allies or help enemies become healed but that's what makes games fun.. being able to be the player that can be depended on to know when to do the right thing. else you make us feel like we are in a McDonald's playland with all the Insulation wrapped around everything so we can't get hurt. lol

I think his current ult should be used for some priest-like hero in the future and have Zilean do something else along these lines talked about here.

If not that, than something similiar..

what if it were done more like "X mark's the spot" from Kunk in dota? and just do location..

or have it so that it did my original post idea but only on yourself and IF you target allies it only knocks off time from their cooldowns. This way, it would be just like "weaver" in that it's 5 seconds back in time for ONLY you, so it's your own responsibility.. and yet you still can aid the team in a "timely" way by helping to shorten their cooldowns for them.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-22-2009
2 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsRight View Post
Okay, at least you guys already looked that idea over. when i first thought of this i thought "how can they not have already thought of this? this is awesome"

what if it had limits so those questionable things can't even take place?
Doesn't solve the vague "how exactly do I use this optimally" issues. Proudmoore's ult in dota runs into this problem. You THINK you used it correctly and got an effect, but you often arent sure because it does so many different things. It's really unclear if you did use it correctly, and you sometimes feel disappointing because it didn't really play optimally. We want it to be hard to play optimally, but we don't want it to be hard to measure optimal.

But yes, we would clean it up were we to do something like this and limit to -- restore HP/Mana and have a one step marking and firing process like x marks the spot, which btw, greatly reduces its maximum potency ... could go two step I guess.


Quote:
and yea, i have thought about how you can screw over your own allies or help enemies become healed but that's what makes games fun.. being able to be the player that can be depended on to know when to do the right thing. else you make us feel like we are in a McDonald's playland with all the Insulation wrapped around everything so we can't get hurt. lol
Sorry, no. that's what makes specific mechanics fun to a subset of users that got past their initial 'wtf' reaction and stuck with it. Team grief in DOTA is a lot of why its such a hostile, adversarial game. I agree that these sorts of 'can screw your ally' abilities can be fun, but while they occasionally create 'nice move' compliments with pre-mades and pros, they create DEEPLY REMEMBERED 'wtf, my ally tked me, this game sucks' moments that churn users forever. I'd rather be making Blitzcranks and Anivias than Bloodseekers or Tinies. We are trying to focus on the positive aspects of dota, and move away from the super focused, occasionally kludgey, hate-causing and/or 'wtf just happened' aspects.

Quote:
what if it were done more like "X mark's the spot" from Kunk in dota? and just do location..
Yes, that's much closer. I dont like how forced the synergy is in that combo with his maelstrom AE (or whatever it is called), but that is closer. It's more of a lockdown mechanic and less of a full reset.

Quote:
or have it so that it did my original post idea but only on yourself and IF you target allies it only knocks off time from their cooldowns. This way, it would be just like "weaver" in that it's 5 seconds back in time for ONLY you, so it's your own responsibility.. and yet you still can aid the team in a "timely" way by helping to shorten their cooldowns for them.
Not opposed to a dual purpose ult -- target allies to drop all their cds by -75%, target enemies to do some other nasty thing.


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Meta

Member

12-22-2009

Wait, what's wrong with his current ult?


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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-22-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yes, that's much closer. I dont like how forced the synergy is in that combo with his maelstrom AE (or whatever it is called), but that is closer. It's more of a lockdown mechanic and less of a full reset.
I agree here. also with what you said about tiny and bloodseeker. funny you should point those 2 heroes out as they are usually the ones i ban in CM mode. =P


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Not opposed to a dual purpose ult -- target allies to drop all their cds by -75%, target enemies to do some other nasty thing.
So you think you may consider also moving back in time for Zilean only for when he does self-target and for allies/enemies screw with their cooldowns?

that would definately be much cooler than his current spell, even though it isn't what i originally posted. but it does still make it feel much more related to time that way.

Then give his current ult to a priest and call it "Resurrection" where you bless the unit just prior to death. now that makes more sense. i'm sure there will be more healing heroes in the future.


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Smgzy

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The Council

12-22-2009

I don't like this idea. You are getting the same effect, that is restoring health and saving another person(ideally) without the guarantee. What is the point of putting this in other than pushing the agenda of you thinking that it is cool when in fact it isn't really taht cool. Another person controlling the location of your char based off their judgement, which is probably bad bad based off of many of the players that I have played with. Say you are tower diving and you really want that kill, and you would have got it but your buddy, with good intention was trying to save you because he didn't know you had summoner heal or whatever reason. So he uses this skill, and you don't get it, and it sucks. So what effect do you get?

This idea is bad, not to mention how hard is it to try to save someone in team fights which last like two seconds sometimes with people blowing up all over the place. It's much easier to put the current skill on someone who you know is going to be targeted, and there have been so many clutch saves with that than i care to mention. Your best argument here is "I thought it would be pretty cool." Other than that there is no reason this should be put into the game. It will not increase the fun factor, it will not increase the skill to use the champion or his ablities. It would just be annoying. I think less people would use zilean if this was put in. He's already on the low end of use from what i've seen.


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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-22-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smgzy View Post

This idea is bad, not to mention how hard is it to try to save someone in team fights which last like two seconds sometimes with people blowing up all over the place. It's much easier to put the current skill on someone who you know is going to be targeted, and there have been so many clutch saves with that than i care to mention. Your best argument here is "I thought it would be pretty cool." Other than that there is no reason this should be put into the game. It will not increase the fun factor, it will not increase the skill to use the champion or his ablities. It would just be annoying. I think less people would use zilean if this was put in. He's already on the low end of use from what i've seen.
yeah i see that now. and yes he is on the low end so that's why i posted.. cuz i'm trying to get him to be more interesting and feel more related to "time".

i'm not saying his current ult is bad. i'm just saying it should be different and that his current spell would be better suited for a priest's ult.. such as a resurrection spell.


But for Zilean, would you like this idea if it was a 2part ability where IF you cast it on yourself, it sends you back in time 5 seconds but you can't do that to anyone else.. then have a secondary effect for targetting allies.. where it would do something different, by knocking off seconds from their cooldowns,

thus making him into someone that can save his own ass, yet, is highly welcomed by allies because of that kind of awesome cooldown reduction support.