Best use of a Void Staff

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GG Crono

Senior Member

12-21-2009

The Void Staff is quite a good item. The big casters I play are Veigar and Fiddlesticks, and it seems well-suited to both of them. However, I haven't yet gotten a chance to seriously experiment with this, so I thought I'd ask for some thoughts.

Who here uses them regularly, and with who? Are they a good any-time choice for nuker heroes, or is it the sort of thing that should be saved for when the enemy is piling on the magic resistance?


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Vichar

Senior Member

12-21-2009

Many items in the game give magic resistance, some of which are actually meant to help offense. Examples include Wit's End and Lichbane.

Let's look at a player who has Wit's End. Their MR is 62, not 30. Let's examine the effects of Void staff.

Imagine that you have 200 AP. You cast a spell that does a base 300 Damage, for a total of 500 incoming damage.

Because they have 62 MR, they will take 308 damage (500 * 100/162).

Let's consider two scenarios, one where you pick up
3X Blasting Wands (2580 gold) and one where you get the Void staff (2320 gold).

3X Blasting Wands gives you +120 AP. You now have 320 AP, so your incoming damage is now 620. After MR it's 383. This represents a 24% increase in damage. Not bad!

Void staff gives you +50 AP, 40% MR. So, you now have 250 AP, and the target has 37.2 MR. Your incoming damage is 550, and after MR it's 400.8. This represents a 30% increase in damage. Even better!

Ok, my example is kind of crude, but you get the idea. The enemy doesn't have to stack a whole heck of a lot of MR to make Void Staff worthwhile. Should you just blindly get it if you are a magic nuker? I would say, click on your opponents and see what their MR is when you are thinking about a purchase. If any of them have any MR above 30, you should consider Void staff as a very real option. It scales great and really helps with tanks.

TLDR: If you rely on magic to kill things, and enemy champions have > 30 MR, buy Void Staff.


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Cyatomorrow

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Senior Member

12-21-2009

It's good on any hero that does magical damage for the majority of their damage. You shouldn't be asking yourself if Void Staff is good on your hero, you should be asking if it's good against the team you're playing.


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Rudeboymike

Senior Member

12-21-2009

To be honest, Vichar its not as easy for most Fiddle players. There are so many other factors that can go into Magic Resistance. As i understand, the way Magic Resistance is factored in order of attributes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire3936
1. Magic Resistance Reduction - Abyssal Scepter, Fiddlesticks/Amumu Passive Aura, Soraka's Starcall, etc (can reduce past zero)
2. Percentage Magic Penetration - Void Staff, Archaic Knowledge Mastery talent
3. Magic Penetration - Sorcerer's Boots, Haunting Guise, Magic Pen Runes (stops at zero)
So you can reduce MR below zero if you the target has less than the Magic Resistance Reduction amount.
Maybe if you do know more, help me with this question i posted on another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudeboymike
Ok, so my typical lane partner is Amumu and im a Fiddlesticks (gogo AOE comp). I am the typical Magic Pen build with Void Staff as my only Magic Pen item. He is Sunfire Cape stacking and he buys the Abyssal Scepter.

Would this be overkill on Magic Pen?

1. -50 MR or -70 at 18 (10 from Fiddle, 20/30/40 from Amumu, 20 From Abyssal)
2. 40% Void Staff (when im level 30, the 15% from mastery)
3. +12 Magic Pen Runes

My questions:

Is the Void Staff necessary or overkill from most games? The reason i ask is because with that much MR reduction, its utility is diminished. Granted on a team stacking MR, ill get it.. but most games, yes or no? Mejai's would be my alternate.

Should i maximize my Glyph Runes to take advantage of the Primary AP runes or continue with Magic Pen?


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RamboBatman

Senior Member

12-21-2009

In some cases straight Magic Pen is better than percentile. On Fiddlesticks, for example, any combination of his innate, sorc. boots, abyssal scepter, that mask dealy, and improved exhaust will counter any innate MR plus most of one "incidental" item (wits end, lichbane, chalice, merc. treads) that your opponents might have. Also, if you have a Soraka on your team, starcall can really help reduce enemy MR in teamfights. However, if you don't have any straight MR reduction/penetration on your team, Void Staff is almost always a great buy.

My point is, either go for straigh MR reduction/penetration or percentile, not both. The way armor/resistance penetration is calculated makes it not worth the cost. (of course, always get the magic pen. mastery because its free and amazing).

Also, consider voidstaff on champions with poor AP scaling but a good amount of magic damage. Katarina, Karthus, and Ryze come to mind.


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Vichar

Senior Member

12-21-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudeboymike View Post
To be honest, Vichar its not as easy for most Fiddle players. There are so many other factors that can go into Magic Resistance. As i understand, the way Magic Resistance is factored in order of attributes:



So you can reduce MR below zero if you the target has less than the Magic Resistance Reduction amount.
Maybe if you do know more, help me with this question i posted on another thread.
The way it was explained to me, there are 3 kinds of modifiers to magic resistance:

Magic Resistance Reduction (Abyssal Scepter, Fiddle's ability).
Magic Penetration, % (Void Staff)
Magic Penetration, fixed number (Sorc Boots, Haunting Guise)

OK, the way it was explained to me was, first reduction is applied, then penetration %, then the penetration fixed number. This means Sorc Boots and Haunting Guise now work well with Penetration.

However, this also means that Void staff is gimped for fiddle, because the reduction is applied first. Sucky.

Example: Target has 100 MR. Abyssal reduces by 20, you now have 80. After Void Staff, it's 48. That means Void Staff got you another -32 MR.

If you didn't have a Scepter, Void Staff would have reduced the target's MR to 60. That means -40 MR from Void Staff. Do you see what I mean when I say Magic Resistance Reduction and Void staff kind of gimp each other.

The redeeming factor of reduction is that it can take MR under zero, whereas penetration never brings it under zero.

Clear as mud? The short version is, you're right, it's complicated for Fiddle. I'd almost say that it's less worthwhile to get Void staff as fiddle, unless you're going up against 5 tanks stacking MR against you.


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Rudeboymike

Senior Member

12-21-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
Clear as mud? The short version is, you're right, it's complicated for Fiddle. I'd almost say that it's less worthwhile to get Void staff as fiddle, unless you're going up against 5 tanks stacking MR against you.
yea, thats basically my understand of it as well. So aside from MR stacking Tank team, would if be better to either:

A. Switch out Void Staff for a better item (Mejai's Soulstealer would be my main choice)
B. Switch out Blue Magic Pen Runes to Blue AP Runes (Magic pen is Secondary on Blue, where as AP is Primary)
C. Do both

Granted the exact numbers will be different on different teams. Void Staff can be switched out depending on team, but Magic Pen Runes cannot be changed in game. But Magic Pen Runes are more of a reduction (after static Magic Resistance reduction) than Void Staff's percentage (on non-tank teams).


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EchoRex

Senior Member

12-21-2009

No to option A, Mejai's now requires you to basically not die at all or it will stay worse than Voidstaff even excluding Voidstaff knocking down innate resistances. There really isn't another item in that basic price range that would benefit you more, or you are not already going to have.

I would say no to B also, unless you are rushing a Voidstaff, at which point that would work well enough.


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Rudeboymike

Senior Member

12-21-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
No to option A, Mejai's now requires you to basically not die at all or it will stay worse than Voidstaff even excluding Voidstaff knocking down innate resistances. There really isn't another item in that basic price range that would benefit you more, or you are not already going to have.

I would say no to B also, unless you are rushing a Voidstaff, at which point that would work well enough.
Well the discrepancy in Mejai's Remake really isnt an issue to me. I cant remember the last time i went worse than a 2:1 k/d ratio. Mostly with 2-3 death maximum. I run with a pretty good team of tanks that are good with keeping stuff off me.

I don't rush Void Staff, but it is fairly early. For me its:
Catalyst
Boots
Rod of Ages
Mejai on a good game
Void Staff on every other game
Abyssal if my mummy isnt getting many KBs

Another Rod of Ages isn't out of the question to replace Mejai or Void Staff. Its not uncommon to see me rocking 3 Rod of Ages by end game if they have a very tanky team or are smart enough to focus my outside of the other tanks.


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Bait

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Senior Member

12-21-2009

every magic damage dealer uses void staff.

annie, fiddles, nunu, chogath, ryze, veigar, etc.

the most common build is something like catalyst, boots, some ap item, void staff.

p.s. mejaj is terrible. absolutely positively terrible. i have nightmares where every one of my teammates buy mejaj. ahhhhhh!!


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