Armor pen stacking pantheon

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Zopo

Senior Member

12-10-2010

I just got done with a game where I played with a panth that went full arp items. he rushed ghostblade into a last whisper and ended with a black cleaver. i tired to explain to him that BT is significantly more damage than both a last whisper and cleaver and all he said was "im not arguing with you try it" the lux on our team basically said i was to stupid to explain it to but i don't think i'm wrong here.

only one person on the enemy team had any armor and that was just a chain-vest on morde. i tried to explain if nidalee has 71 armor and you have 51 arp from ghost blade+runes/masteries (thats what i usually have) then apply last whispers -40% you aren't even getting 10 armor reduction out of that item. then to top it off he got a black cleaver meaning his last whispers -40% was doing absolutely nothing, he already had a ghostbade and its active ads more attack speed than last whisper.

can anyone reaffirm this or am i just an idiot that cant see why obviously armor pen>all


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Yoshiku

Member

12-10-2010

He can pen your all your armor with his base damage if he wants to spend all his gold on armor pen junk. Let him, its pretty useless unless you balance damage/arp.


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Mowarth

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Senior Member

12-10-2010

Full damage pantheon isn't even as good as Mallet + BV + atmas + merc treads + inf edge + youmuus, imo


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x5 Denian

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Senior Member

12-10-2010

ghostblade = epic
last whisper = eventually needed on all auto attackers/physical skill champs

then its
blood thirster, I.E, or BC

I can see why BC is good, if he dying at all BT does the LEAST damage, and it helps the entire team if he auto attacks

/shrug
personal choice.


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Mellow X

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Negative armor ftw?


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The Itis

Senior Member

12-10-2010

It appears you don't understand armor pen versus armor reducing.

Armor reducing is when you actually change their armor stat, such as taking it down from 71 to 11 at full cleaver stacks (60 reduced armor)
But really with a pantheon, any one person should be dead before he auto attacks them 5 times.

Armor penetration on the other hand is when you just ignore what they have. They will continue to have 71 armor, but your attacks behave as if they only had 20 (if you have 51 armor penetration)

The key differences are: When you reduce armor, your teammates also hit harder, but penetration only affects your attacks because you can't share the ignoring armor ability. The other difference is that you can reduce armor into negative numbers, but you cannot ignore past 0. You simply cannot ignore what they don't have and cannot ignore them into negatives.
This means if you have 50 armor penetration and the enemy only has 30 armor, then you will only be penetrating all 30 of that armor.

In many situations people do inadvertently render some of their penetration as ineffectual.


If you were claiming a bloodthirster is more damage than a last whisper+ black cleaver, i would say you are wrong.
Bloodthirster = 60 damage up to 100 damage

Last whisper = 10 damage
Black cleaver = 75 damage

the attack speed from whisper and armor pen from cleaver alone are more significant than the 15 damage difference.


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IMLOwl

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow X View Post
Negative armor ftw?
You can't penetrate past zero...

You can only go past zero with reduction, and if Panth is auto attacking anyone 5 times, he's doing it wrong.


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Zopo

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Itis View Post
It appears you don't understand armor pen versus armor reducing.

Armor reducing is when you actually change their armor stat, such as taking it down from 71 to 11 at full cleaver stacks (60 reduced armor)
But really with a pantheon, any one person should be dead before he auto attacks them 5 times.

Armor penetration on the other hand is when you just ignore what they have. They will continue to have 71 armor, but your attacks behave as if they only had 20 (if you have 51 armor penetration)

The key differences are: When you reduce armor, your teammates also hit harder, but penetration only affects your attacks because you can't share the ignoring armor ability. The other difference is that you can reduce armor into negative numbers, but you cannot ignore past 0. You simply cannot ignore what they don't have and cannot ignore them into negatives.
This means if you have 50 armor penetration and the enemy only has 30 armor, then you will only be penetrating all 30 of that armor.

In many situations people do inadvertently render some of their penetration as ineffectual.


If you were claiming a bloodthirster is more damage than a last whisper+ black cleaver, i would say you are wrong.
Bloodthirster = 60 damage up to 100 damage

Last whisper = 10 damage
Black cleaver = 75 damage

the attack speed from whisper and armor pen from cleaver alone are more significant than the 15 damage difference.
factor in price as well, last whisper+ black cleaver wont be nearly as cost effective as a single bloodthristers for the damage it provides. i also need to not mention because of this build he had 0 defensive items.


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Misere Do Queijo

Senior Member

12-10-2010

last whisper is an ocasional item, intended to damage high armor stacking enemies

about ArPen builds, i think xin zhao is the only one that benefits from that, due to his ULT scaling with Arpen

You can just Go GhostBlade,SoTD bruta(or madred late game) for damage and boots+survivability and instakill squishies and 1v1 lots of heroes with the AC+ULT+Q+W combo


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Feral Renegade

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Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zopo View Post
I just got done with a game where I played with a panth that went full arp items. he rushed ghostblade into a last whisper and ended with a black cleaver. i tired to explain to him that BT is significantly more damage than both a last whisper and cleaver and all he said was "im not arguing with you try it" the lux on our team basically said i was to stupid to explain it to but i don't think i'm wrong here.

only one person on the enemy team had any armor and that was just a chain-vest on morde. i tried to explain if nidalee has 71 armor and you have 51 arp from ghost blade+runes/masteries (thats what i usually have) then apply last whispers -40% you aren't even getting 10 armor reduction out of that item. then to top it off he got a black cleaver meaning his last whispers -40% was doing absolutely nothing, he already had a ghostbade and its active ads more attack speed than last whisper.

can anyone reaffirm this or am i just an idiot that cant see why obviously armor pen>all
You are correct in thinking that the last whisper is useless. The black cleaver is also a less than inelligent choice simply because none of his abilities are going to apply the debuf. This means that he needs to soften his enemies up with autoattacks first, which generally doesn't happen. Generally my panth build is as follows:

Meki + hpx2
Manaume
Brut > youmus
Merc treads
Bf sword > Bloodthirster
Bloodthirster OR Randuins
Bloodthirster or Banshees
Perhaps I could replace one of the last items with a guardians if i feel the desire.

Full ArP panth with BC AND LW is just useless.


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