[Guide] Ashe - The Team Queen

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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
I agree with that. A central resource will help many more players than several guides scattered all over the internet. Fusing my input into your guide would be more effective and less work than writing two separate guides.

I might be inclined to write some of my own sections, rather than have you try to interpret and paraphrase my meaning. The way I see it we have two basic styles to present, your 'combative mid' and my 'passive mid.' We could either organize it either as simultaneous guides or consecutive ones. That is, we progress through the various rune/mastery/item/strategy sections, explaining both styles in each section along the way, or we separate the two more clearly and explain all of one and then all of the other. If more worthy styles come to light from additional feedback, they could be added and credited as well.

Also if I get the time, I might try and make some short videos, because actually the one thing that helped me more than anything else when I was learning Ashe, was watching other people play Ashe (in video clips, livestream, live games, w/e). For example, for a long time I would read guides that would simply tell me to Volley harass, but whenever I tried it myself I'd just miss or hit creeps. Watching a successful Volley harass in high level stream was what helped me realize what I was doing wrong.
Excellent idea.

However, there are more than just my 'combative' and your 'passive' mid builds that I think are worthy of discussion. For example, the move speed utility Ashe is a phenomenal build for side laning as it allows you to harass heavily while remaining safe.

I'll compile an outline and post it between now and Sunday night for your review and we can narrow it down to the most effective portions. I'm thinking we should include between 4 and 5 completely different (as different as is possible for Ashe, anyway) builds that can be chosen depending on playstyle.

Keep an eye out for my outline concept and we'll go from there. I still want to focus on the concept of Ashe staying safe early to mid, and then completely dominating late game. The method used to do this can vary, and that's what we're going to do by offering multiple paths.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azriel View Post
I don't know. Back when Levi was giving 2 stacks per kill AND assist, it was so easy to farm up and did wonders for her survivability for v. little cost. I wouldn't call it's purchase the worst idea EVER in those days =)
Must have been before my time...

I guess if it gave 2 for each assist, it could have been worth it, but seems to me like the guide should either be updated or removed...that's the biggest issue...none of the guides made any sense from a current day standpoint...


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-30-2010

Okay...I couldn't let this go...felt like writing tonight, so here goes...

SoF, please review and give me your thoughts on the proposed topics to be covered.

Quote:
PROPOSED CONTENTS:

Introduction
Explain the concept of Ashe being similar to the Queen in chess. I've already done this once, but I want to re-write it to be a bit more descriptive and encompass the various methods players can use to accomplish this. For example, a build might focus on limiting Ashe's weaknesses early, or even further enhancing her strengths late game...both concepts are good, but they need to be clearly defined.

Build Concepts
-Berserker Ashe: Focus on max DPS. Balanced build for numerous situations.
-Brutal Ashe: Focus on Flat Armor Penetration & Damage. Annihilate squishies!
-Survival Ashe: Focus on Health, Damage, & Health Regen. Dominant middle lane.
-Utility Ashe: Focus on Mana Regen, Cooldown Reduction, & Move Speed. Balanced for numerous situations.

The above concepts are predominantly referring to the masteries, runes, and spell choices. However, since certain choices in the pre-game can have drastic effects on item selection or the order in which they are purchased, each build will have a different set of core items.

I suggest that any build we put together should consist of only runes, masteries, spells, core items, and skill order. All of the situational items for Ashe don't really change based on the build...if they're stacking armor past 100, you pretty much HAVE to get Last Whisper. The same is true for Banshee's Veil if there are a bunch of casters on the other team.

Build Explanations
This would be the area where we expound on each build's summary, similar to how I did in the OP. Explanations behind each build's synergy between the runes, masteries, spells and item selections. These don't have to be masterfully written, but they should make the correct points.

Strategies
Here, we would explain the optimum usage of each build...for example, the survival build would be best solo mid if you want to play more aggressive, or be able to handle pretty much ANY mid champ. The utility build works best with a good teammate on the side lanes because Ashe can harass and allow a melee champ to get his farming in. Obviously, each build has areas in which it is either better, worse or average. This is where we explain how to play each build successfully.
At this point, we would have 3 sections...Which is exactly the number of first posts I have in the OP. If we wanted to add additional sections, we could, but I'm thinking that the above info should be plenty.

Thoughts?


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SoFFacet

Senior Member

12-30-2010

That stuff sounds good to me. I just think we need to be careful to explain which "build concepts" are better than others in which situations. Otherwise a reader could become confused and think, well all those options are great, now which one do I actually use? Kind of the same as what you were referring to earlier in trimming down the recommended items to just the best few. Only include the best few build options, and explain very clearly what the criteria for deciding between them is.

That I know of, thus far we'd need to cover

Masteries, Spells, Quints, Marks, Seals, Glyphs, Items

21/8/1, Heal/Ghost, Health, ArPen, MRegen/18, CDR/18, Dorans --> Boots 1 --> IE --> Boots 3 --> PD
21/0/9, Flash/Ghost, ArPen, ArPen, MRegen/18, MRegen/18, Dorans --> Greaves --> IE --> Zeal
11/0/19, Flash/Ghost, MSpeed, ArPen, MRegen/18, CDR/18, Dorans --> Whatever utility Ashe builds


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
That stuff sounds good to me. I just think we need to be careful to explain which "build concepts" are better than others in which situations. Otherwise a reader could become confused and think, well all those options are great, now which one do I actually use? Kind of the same as what you were referring to earlier in trimming down the recommended items to just the best few. Only include the best few build options, and explain very clearly what the criteria for deciding between them is.

That I know of, thus far we'd need to cover

Masteries, Spells, Quints, Marks, Seals, Glyphs, Items

21/8/1, Heal/Ghost, Health, ArPen, MRegen/18, CDR/18, Dorans --> Boots 1 --> IE --> Boots 3 --> PD
21/0/9, Flash/Ghost, ArPen, ArPen, MRegen/18, MRegen/18, Dorans --> Greaves --> IE --> Zeal
11/0/19, Flash/Ghost, MSpeed, ArPen, MRegen/18, CDR/18, Dorans --> Whatever utility Ashe builds
Looks pretty good. How about you do the middle build, I'll do my build, and work on the MS build...do the build summary in the same format as the OP of this thread, but only go to the core items (the ones you absolutely MUST get). Do that in one quote, the explanations as to WHEN and WHY to use that build in another quote, and then in a third quote, give a brief walkthrough of how a typical game will play out at mid. We'll have a separate section for side laning for each build which we can do later. We will come up with legitimate situational items for each player to decide on as they play the game, and explain when to get them and why

I agree that we definitely want to be VERY clear on the pros and cons of each build as well as their design philosophies...


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-30-2010

Just curious, SoF...is your username on here the same as your summoner profile name? I sent you a friend request in game...

We could test out the builds against one another in custom games...

Solo mid vs. solo mid...could be interesting!


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SoFFacet

Senior Member

12-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Looks pretty good. How about you do the middle build, I'll do my build, and work on the MS build...do the build summary in the same format as the OP of this thread, but only go to the core items (the ones you absolutely MUST get). Do that in one quote, the explanations as to WHEN and WHY to use that build in another quote, and then in a third quote, give a brief walkthrough of how a typical game will play out at mid. We'll have a separate section for side laning for each build which we can do later. We will come up with legitimate situational items for each player to decide on as they play the game, and explain when to get them and why
Sounds good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Just curious, SoF...is your username on here the same as your summoner profile name? I sent you a friend request in game...

We could test out the builds against one another in custom games...

Solo mid vs. solo mid...could be interesting!
Yes it is. I've been home for the holidays for about a week now and left my gaming rig back at my apartment. But I'll definitely add you when I get back (after new years). Btw if you must abbreviate my name, 'Facet' will suffice.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Sounds good.



Yes it is. I've been home for the holidays for about a week now and left my gaming rig back at my apartment. But I'll definitely add you when I get back (after new years). Btw if you must abbreviate my name, 'Facet' will suffice.
Hahaha!

Okay, my apologies...from now on you shall only be called SoFFacet or just plain ole Facet.

Happy new year!


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Solid Locke

Junior Member

01-01-2011

Hey guys,

I play on the EU server but I saw this guide and read all the 11 pages, so I decided to ask my US friend to post this for me.
I just wanted to contribute to the remaking of the guide and ask you guys for an opinion of my build.

I also play what you guys call "Utility Ashe" so it might help you with that section.

First of all, I want to go over the advantages of going for Utility instead of Offense, as I never really
understood how the Offense tree can compare to Utility for what it gives. Lets start comparing from the bottom,
point for point (of course, this is the difference between a 21/0/9 and 9/0/21)

First we have +5% damage vs -15% CD on Summoner abilities. Now if you have, let's say, 200 damage,that 5% translates
into measly 10 damage. And that is not a 10 point increase in damage, as that 10 also has to "go through" the
opponents armor, so more likely its about 6-7 damage. And that's when you have 200 damage, with means that its
basically useless early game. On the other side we have -15% cooldown to Summoner abilities, which is a
pretty big reduction, but I will go through that a bit later, in the "gameplay" section.

Next we have +10% to crit damage vs 6% CD reduction. Now let's say you have IE already, because without it you
basically dont have any crit chance, and again let's say you have 200 damage. Now if the opponents had no armor,
without the talent you would crit for 500 damage, and with the talent you would crit for 520 damage. But if we
take that the opponents have only 70 armor, then using the formula damage=damage*100/100+armor, we get that
without the talent you crit for 295, and with the talent you crit for 305. That's a 10 damage increase, but
again, that is when you have 200 damage and the opponent only has 70 armor. Earlier in the game, and when the
opponent has more armor, it becomes less effective.On the other side we have a pretty nice 6% CD reduction on
your abilities, so you might say these 2 are around even.

Next we have +3 damage vs +3% movespeed. This isn't even worth comparing lol. A measly +3 damage that becomes +1 or
+2 when it goes through armor, vs a +9 movespeed increase without the boots (which is really important in the early
game, when you only have a Dorans and a health pot, that 309 MS instead of 300 can really help you a lot),
not to mention that later when you buy boots lvl 1 and 2, it gets exponentially better.

Next we have a +15% magic pen vs a 15 second CD reduction on Flash. I would say this is pretty even, as the magic
pen of course only works with Arrow (for which you dont have any +AP), and the -15 secs can come in handy.

Next we have +4 armor pen (as you will have 1 point here when you go 9/0/21 too) vs +30% neutral buff duration.
The armor pen is nice, but the thing is that you can get it with runes and items too, whereas the +30% buff
duration really helps late game, when you as a carry will want to take lizard every time and maybe even golem.

And last we have +2% attack speed vs +066 mana regen (as you will have 1 point here when you go 21/0/9 too)
I think this mana regen mastery is important, as with it + mana regen runes will allow you
to spam volley early in the game for those creep kills. And let's face it, 2% attack speed...I don't even see
how that can be noticable.

Lol I didn't plan for this part to take so much space, but in my book the Utility talents waaay outmatch the
Offense ones, as you can get everything that Offense gives from runes/items, and most Utility masteries are
unique.



Ok now finally to the build itself.

Here is the "pregame stuff" I use:

Armor pen reds
Mana regen/5 yellows
Flat CD reduction blues
Armor Pen Quints

Link to the masties:
http://leaguecraft.com/masteries/300...30140032031301

Flash/Ghost for summoner abilities

Now I want to explain my playstyle before going to the items part.

First of all, I dont't try to be aggressive in the lane. I feel (like you mentioned) Ashe really cant go toe to toe
with most of the other mids. I try to last hit minions as much as I can, harrassing only when its super safe and easy.
At the same time, I try not not be harrassed by the other mid, and movespeed mastery in Utility often plays
a role here. If they try to go for a kill early on, I use one of my Summoner abilites to run away. It's
not that often that it happens, but if it does, it's not a big deal since your CD for them is reduced greatly
from your masteries. The other thing I wanna talk about here is the synergy between Volley and flat CD red blues,
mana regen yellows and mana regen talent in Utility. With all those, you can basically spam volley as soon as it
comes off cooldown, because the mana regen will be REALLY good at this point, and I feel like I never have any
mana issues in my games, even with Arrowing and Volleying constantly. Now feel like it's a personal preference
between flat CD recuction and per level ones, but aside from the Volley early game, flat ones also help with one
more thing, the Arrow. This is not mentioned at all in the guide, I dont know if you guys dont do it or what
is the case. What I'm talking about is firing the Arrow to one of the side lanes. You said ganking is now
basically only the junglers job. Maybe thats true, but with Ashe you can initiate a fight wherever you want.
It's not easy hitting with the Arrow from mid to one of the side lanes, but I'd say I've become pretty good at it.
It just comes down to practice. But know that if you hit, that will be a kill in 99,99% of the cases, often
even a double kill, and of course you get gold from the assist. Not to mention your team will be eternally
grateful to you, and will know you are not some random scrub playing Ashe cause shes free that week. I feel that is
a unique ability Ashe has, initiating fights and getting gold from assits, and it not impacting her minion
farming at all. On the contrary, I dont think its worth Arrowing the opposing champion in mid as in my case
it almost never ends up with a kill, as Ashe has REALLY low damage early on, and the fact that if the opponent
Flashes, Ghosts or Exausts you, you will not be able to kill him. That is why I try to fire the Arrow on one of
the sides lanes AS SOON AS it comes off cooldown, to maximize your effectiveness.

Now after explaining my playstyle and early game, I will kinda mix in the items and the mid/late game. So after
getting my Dorans Sword and Health pot, my next item is Infinity Edge. I will try not to return to base until
I have at least enough money for BF Sword + basic boots. For advanced boots, I like to go Swiftness in 80% of
the cases. In the other 20%, I will get Mercury Threads if the opposing team is REALLY heavy on CCand AP heroes.
On the other hand, i think movespeed is great for Ashe, because it will enable you to keep your enemies constantly
slowed with the Frows Arrows. It will also allow you to run away from bad situations (and you will be running
away A LOT while playing Ashe) and to quicker reposition yourself in teamfights. Also its crucial for kiting,
which is one of Ashes best roles. Additional Armor Pen from the Quints will keep you going in the mid game until
it's time for Last Whisper (explained later). Also, like you said, mid game is basically an extention of early
game for Ashe, as you want to farm minions for as long as you can. What will change is that the enemy team will
try to gank you much more often. This is where your Summoner abilities come into play. I have noticed I rarely
use my Flash and Ghost offensively, as I will have one of the biggest movespeeds in the game, and I can slow
with my Q. So I mostly use my Summoners to get away from trouble. I would say that low deaths is kind of my
"speciality" with Ashe, as even if I dont get a lot of kills, my deaths are really really low. If fact, looking
at my match history right now, out of the 10 games, in 4 of them I have 0 deaths. I have to say that the final
talent in Utility helps a lot with this.

Now comes a funny part, what to buy after the IE? I have thought and tested a lot of things, and these are my results.
This is the part I need your guys feedback and opinion the most . The "problem" here is attack speed. You need it for 3
reasons. First, it increases your DPS. Second, it helps to keep your enemies slowed with your Q. And third, it will help you
get more kills instead of assits, as I found that if I dont have any AS, I would never get any kills and end up with a crapton
of assists. Now that's not bad, but as Ashe and a carry, you really need gold the most in your team, and nowhere except
really really really high level of play will your teammates let you get the kills. The "problem" is that you also need armor pen
now, because all that AS will do nothing if your damage is getting blocked. So I took 4 possible situations, and suggested
what to do when in them. These situations are all after you get your IE.

1. If there are no champions in the enemy team that have over 80ish armor. Build Phantom Dancer,
followed by a Last Whisper. The philosophy behind this is that you will have enough armor pen from your Reds and Quints,
and after the PD you will have 50% crit chance which will hurt A LOT, especially squishies. After that LW is a logical choice
as it is never really a bad item, and its effectiveness will scale as the game goes on.

2. If there are 2 champions in the enemy team that have armor items, but dont have over 100ish armor. In this case
I do a pretty unique thing. I will get 2 Daggers, followed by a Last Whisper, followed by completing the PD.
2 Daggers don't cost that much, 840 gold, and they will give you that important AS, but will not set you back
that much for the much needed Armor Pen.

3. If there are 2 or more champions that have a lot of armor, OR 3 or more champions that have armor items, go for
LW first, followed by a PD.

4. Probably the most common one. If there is 1 enemy champion that has a lot of armor, and the rest dont have any armor
items, there really isnt a set thing to do. You have to evaluate the situation. The threat of the one that has a lot
of armor, can you ignore him if a teamfight breaks out, the health of other enemies etc...I generally will not go LW first
if there is only 1 champ stacking armor, but its hard to say between PD first or 2 Daggers then LW. You have to look at other champs,
do they usually build armor items around that time, does the armor stacking champs next item also have armor etc etc. The most stable thing
you can do is 2 Daggers then LW, as damage and armor pen are never bad, and you can really screw youself if you go for AS, with low damage
and armor pen.


So after you finish your IE, PD, and LW, it will most likely already be deep late game. There isn't much to say about Ashes late game that isnt
already said, but lets go over some stuff again. In teamfights, positiniong is crucial. I would say it is the single most important thing for Ashe
in teamfights. If you're in the front and get CCed, you're probably dead. Always try to attack their DPS and squishies first. Also your Arrow is one
of the best initiating tools in the game. If you can hit that squishy that went in front of his tank for a second and stun him, chances are your team will be
able to pick him off easily, and turn the fight in your favor. If you are winning a teamfight, and they start retreating, they are easy targets for Ashe.
People dont generally run away from her once she gets in their range. Kiting is even more important and its not as easy skill to learn, but once you do
it becomes very useful.


So, if the game isnt over yet, what do you get after IE, LW and PD? In most games, it will be some sort of a surivability item. I generally like to get
Banshees Veil, or Guardian Angel, depending on the enemy team. After that, if the game still isnt over, you can pretty much get whatever you want, depending
on whats going on in the game. I like to get Youmuus Ghostblade, as it brings your Crit chance to 67%, adds more damage and armor pen, and has an awesome active,
just dont forget to use it! Of course, everything above is written for a relatively standard game. Often you will have to get some items like Banshees Veil or
even Hexdrinker earlier, but it would take too much time to explain what to buy in every situation.


So that pretty much sums up what I wanted to say, I know it ended up being quite hectic, and somewhere between my build and a mini guide o.o I just hope you 2
will be able to take something from this and use it in the remake of the guide. I would also like your opinion for my build, what you may call "Utility Ashe"



happy new year btw!


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SoFFacet

Senior Member

01-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid Locke View Post
comparison of offense and utility tree
Almost all masteries provide very minor bonuses. You accurately summarized the limitations of the offensive tree, but a similar analysis could also be done for the defensive and utility. You treated the Utility tree with kid gloves and tried to play up even the most trivial bonuses.

To me I look at the utility tree and I see Summoner CDR (only helpful in rare circumstances), Champ CDR (fractions of seconds off of Volley, whoopie), Movespeed (too small to matter, will buy at least Zeal anyways), and Mana Regen (already have enough of that). Overall nothing seems very good. I realize its not like 21 in offense is the difference between tickling and stomping, but to me its one of those every-little-bit-helps kinda things.

Quote:
This is not mentioned at all in the guide, I dont know if you guys dont do it or what
is the case. What I'm talking about is firing the Arrow to one of the side lanes. You said ganking is now
basically only the junglers job. Maybe thats true, but with Ashe you can initiate a fight wherever you want.
It's not easy hitting with the Arrow from mid to one of the side lanes, but I'd say I've become pretty good at it.
It just comes down to practice. But know that if you hit, that will be a kill in 99,99% of the cases, often
even a double kill, and of course you get gold from the assist. Not to mention your team will be eternally
grateful to you, and will know you are not some random scrub playing Ashe cause shes free that week. I feel that is
a unique ability Ashe has, initiating fights and getting gold from assits, and it not impacting her minion
farming at all. On the contrary, I dont think its worth Arrowing the opposing champion in mid as in my case
it almost never ends up with a kill, as Ashe has REALLY low damage early on, and the fact that if the opponent
Flashes, Ghosts or Exausts you, you will not be able to kill him. That is why I try to fire the Arrow on one of
the sides lanes AS SOON AS it comes off cooldown, to maximize your effectiveness.
This is a difference Eledhan and I have. Eledhan's build takes a ton of things to help him win a war in the middle lane, and firing ECA at the mid opponent as part of an "Arrow Blitz" is just one cog of the machine.

I prefer to fire ECA in jungle ganks on my lane, but when thats not happening I'll fire ECA at side lanes. I also consider myself good at it, but still its a low percentage shot unless you are queing with teammates and communicating with voice so you can let them know where and when you are firing so they don't spook the enemy etc. At that distance its just as much luck as skill, but its still pretty satisfying when it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid Locke
Items
IE-PD-LW is pretty much the standard atm. The order of the last two items can be varied depending on the situation. Your approach sounds pretty similar to mine. I always build at least Zeal before deciding to complete PD immediately or wait until after LW. Only difference I see is that you use Boots 3 (which is what Eledhan uses) instead of Greaves. I find that Greaves combined with Zeal alleviates the AS problem you were describing quite nicely, while also achieving 400 MS.

Thanks for contributing!