Would it make League of Legends more fun and interesting to introduce tradeoffs?

Yes, this is cool idea 5 27.78%
Maybe 3 16.67%
No 10 55.56%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

WHAT! No Tradeoffs?! Items Always Positive?! Show Me Some Negatives!

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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-20-2009

For a game that lets us equip multiples of more weapons/armors then we have arms/bodies we sure see a lot of damage, speed, armor, magic defense, evasion... and so on, but never any negatives or tradeoffs! Where you are not just sacrificing gold.


Like why do we not have an item that is a big sword where it gives big damage BUT slows down your attacks because of it's weight? Or makes you become LESS evasive?

Or hell.. even slows down your movement speed!

I'm kinda tired of so many games having items that provide stats always in the positives. There is much more strategizing/thinking involved in those games that have items with tradeoffs.


I remember playing a game a lot called Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds.. it's a really old mmorpg from the late 90's.. before most people even knew what those kinds of games were. and i loved how it had items that gave negatives.

Like there was an item that decreased your ability make contact with your physical hits, yet gave bigger hits.. Or there were items that lowered your base HP to give your more mana pool. (it was funny when i saw a low level person try to equip one of those and their level was so low that the hp it took away was greater than their max hp and they died instantly.. lol.. **** like that is what makes games fun. lol)


Look at when you equip an heavy armor in real life.. how well you think you are going to evade things?.. yet, in this game, evasion remains unchanged!!!

There is soooo much that can be done with this! Think about it

We could have an item that provides huge armor of say.. 100, but had a slight negative where you also received -15 magic reduction.

More examples:

*item that gives 60% attack speed + 100 damage BUT reduces all evasion to a locked 0 and gives -30 armor and -30 magic reduction.

*a staff that reduces's the user's total physical damage down by half, but raises their Magic penetration by 60.

*raises your mana regeneration by 200% but reduces your mana pool to 1/4th

*raises your HP and Armor but lowers your movement speed..

*gives you better abilities to 'assassinate" people, yet makes visible to enemies when invis, defeating the purpose of invis.

*an item that reduces passive-gold to a locked 0, yet enables you to farm better.

--
it's all about tradeoffs. Where we get to think even more constructively about our characters needs are and figure it out with all kinds of item combinations.

So they would have to consider: "do i want that phantom dancer still since i know this other item is going to make me not ever able to evade attacks?"

"do i want this greater protection if it means me moving slower?"

"is magic defense needed more in this match than armor, because if that is so, i can sacrifice some of it"



This kind of thing would make LoL even more fun and allow for greater specialization.


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Semei

Senior Member

12-20-2009

Excellent idea! Hope Riot can make something like this, great idea


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Milskidasith

Senior Member

12-20-2009

Terribad idea. Tradeoffs only encourage specialization moreso than it already is (no hybrid characters if your +melee is going to interfere with your +AP), and it's harder to balance as well. Plus, if the items are supposed to give an equal tradeoff, why would you want to spend money on them instead of on items that give benefits?

It doesn't add strategy, it just adds needless complexity.


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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-20-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
Terribad idea. Tradeoffs only encourage specialization moreso than it already is (no hybrid characters if your +melee is going to interfere with your +AP), and it's harder to balance as well. Plus, if the items are supposed to give an equal tradeoff, why would you want to spend money on them instead of on items that give benefits?

It doesn't add strategy, it just adds needless complexity.
who says it has to be equal in their tradeoffs? Like a high dmg item might also offer -1 armor. big whoop.

i just like deep games is all. you could say that arguement "it just adds needless complexity" against any game.. yet it's always the games that went deep that get the higher scores. besides, it isn't that complicated. It indicates more "thought" was put into them., and put into the game.


Personally, i'd look over all the current items and adjust them.. give things like Black Axe -5 ms and -15% attack speed.


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Milskidasith

Senior Member

12-20-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsRight View Post
who says it has to be equal in their tradeoffs? Like a high dmg item might also offer -1 armor. big whoop.

i just like deep games is all. you could say that arguement "it just adds needless complexity" against any game.. yet it's always the games that went deep that get the higher scores. besides, it isn't that complicated. It indicates more "thought" was put into them.
Complexity is not the same as depth. Complexity means you have to do more or have more choices, depth means you have more valid choices. If the items tradeoffs are so low they are negligable, then the idea is pointless, and if the items tradeoffs are high, then you wouldn't want to waste gold on them. It's not adding any more strategic decision than figuring out whether or not, say, Yi wants to get his lifesteal or his +movespeed first, or whether you want to go with an AP or tank Amumu.


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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-20-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
Complexity is not the same as depth. Complexity means you have to do more or have more choices, depth means you have more valid choices. If the items tradeoffs are so low they are negligable, then the idea is pointless, and if the items tradeoffs are high, then you wouldn't want to waste gold on them. It's not adding any more strategic decision than figuring out whether or not, say, Yi wants to get his lifesteal or his +movespeed first, or whether you want to go with an AP or tank Amumu.
sure it is. if there were an item that gave: 50 damage, -15 attack speed and +15 AP

and another item that gave:25 damage +15 attack speed and -15 AP

it allows us to weigh it out.. "okay.. i'm a mage and since i dont need to hit that frequently, i'll go with the first option and this way i at least get a little ap out of it but i sacrifice some attack speed but it doesn't matter to me since i just need to get last hits on creeps or to ks a hero."

but the melee hero like yi may favor going for the lesser damage but faster attack speed and sacrifice ap.

and who knows, there maybe instances where the melee character wants the ap and slow attack because of trying something different.

I like it because it makes it become an experimental system.

but the current system.. you generally really can't go wrong getting anything at all in a blind manner.


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Milskidasith

Senior Member

12-20-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsRight View Post

but the current system.. you really can't go wrong getting anything at all in a blind manner.
Yes, yes you can. It's incredibly easy to have versatility with the new system, but it's also incredibly easy to make dumb decisions... like, say, +mana on Mundo, or + AP on Yi, or +Attack Damage on Annie, or any number of terrible combinations. There's more than enough dicisions to make with the current system; strawmanning it to be bad so your system can seem better is not a good way to design the game.


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WhitemageofDOOM

Senior Member

12-21-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsRight View Post
i just like deep games is all.
Go is both the simplest and deepest game in the world.

Complexity and depth are in no way correlated. Often the simplest execution is the deepest, because adding additional choices often transforms previously existing real choices into false choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsRight View Post
but the current system.. you generally really can't go wrong getting anything at all in a blind manner.
Ahahahaha, no. No you really can't go in blind and expect to win.
If you want to hold items to any design sin in this game it's how much they just boil down to pregame math, and not enough adapting to your opponents. Your idea of course would make that worse.


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Logo

Senior Member

12-21-2009

There are already tons of trade-offs. They just come in the form of opportunity cost. I can spend that 900 gold on a chalice or I can spend it on a heart of gold. I can't do both.

Quote:
If you want to hold items to any design sin in this game it's how much they just boil down to pregame math, and not enough adapting to your opponents. Your idea of course would make that worse.
That's not even true. Playing a Tank I adopt one of around 5-6 different item builds depending on my team. Playing a DPS (Sivir) I also vary up my build between 5-6 different setups. There are plenty of uber situational items that you don't want to grab all the time.

And king you are confusing complexity with depth. Item trade-offs just make the math more complex but they don't add anything else to the depth of the game. There's still going to be a single item build you want to maximize the stats you need.


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Tikor

Senior Member

12-22-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logo View Post
There are already tons of trade-offs. They just come in the form of opportunity cost. I can spend that 900 gold on a chalice or I can spend it on a heart of gold. I can't do both.
The other opportunity cost is the item slot. Its a major cost in the doran's, chalice, exex's, avarice blade, heart of gold, phil's stone, brutalizer, and the 1337 mask. They just aren't much as much awesome/slot as lots of other items.

The opportunity cost of an item slot doesn't exist for elixers - this is an element of build depth many people miss. They have that other cost, though, that's not easy to miss...