Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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othic

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

Would it be too game changing if brush could be cut or destroyed and presumably regrow after a period of time?
Like Garen's spin would cut the brush. This would also meaning adding/changing brush.


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Arcane Ezreal

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by othic View Post
Would it be too game changing if brush could be cut or destroyed and presumably regrow after a period of time?
Like Garen's spin would cut the brush. This would also meaning adding/changing brush.
Every champ would need to be able to cut brush if this were to happen.


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Tha Question

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I would like bushes to be more... reliable.


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Opasonofpopa

Member

08-27-2013

In my opinion skillshots should not reveal the caster because a part of their power is in the ability to be cast without other detection that the projectile. Changing that would destroy the balance of the game. Any player can tell where the flying whatever came from and retaliate with their own skills. Of course this gives auto attackers and point-and-clickers little to do, but they have other strong aspects to balance that out. Additionally the change would destroy some of the funniest aspects of the game - epic brush juke kills and battles from the fog of war with skillshots.

In general the best way to do the brush-vision-thingy (at least if you ask me) is to make point and click spells and auto attacks reveal the caster, while having skill shots or ground targeted abilities not do that. This would change very little and it would be quite easy for older players that are used to the current system to adapt. Also re-balancing the champions that have changed shouldn't be as big of a problem this way.


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Sty13z

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I'm still going to bring up Sona because I think she's a very unique example of the whole brush/reveal thing.

We've established that AGGRESSIVE actions should reveal you, so riddle me this...

Sona's Q (damage) DOES NOT reveal you
Sona's W (heal) DOES reveal you

*slowly twirls a finely groomed mustache*


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SummonerNumber6

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
I like this idea, though I suppose the simplest way would be to use the "eyes" graphic when you are revealed by say an enemy trap, though it would add a new meaning to it and might get confused. So you could also make a new graphic for it, maybe at the feet of the player so as to clutter the screen less while still being able to see if you looked for it. The problem of course being that you have to look for it.


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Chanceston

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hi everyone,

I've been quiet for a while so for those of you who who don't know me I'm Yakaru and I'm one of the Senior Gameplay Engineers. I'm pretty well known as a hardcore tabletop gamer and for my Ninja 300 motorcycle.

I've been looking at fog of war and brush and I've noticed a lot of things that are strange, which made me realize the rules for brush/fog aren't as clean and consistent as they could be. If you have a few minutes would you mind sharing your thoughts with me?

Here's some facts:
* Autoattacks will always reveal you through brush
* Nunu's ultimate (Absolute Zero) doesn't reveal him in brush while he's charging
* Blitzcrank Rocket Grabs will show you his fist but not Blitzcrank himself
* Nidalee throwing her spears (Q) also doesn't reveal her
* Taric's Dazzle does reveal him
* Nunu's Iceball will reveal him

I can get into the details of why it's like this, but the more important question is how SHOULD it work and why?

My gut instincts are that any 'aggressive' action should probably reveal you -- if a spell is dealing damage, slows, roots, or stuns, for example, it should reveal the caster. This is an easy to understand rule and is very easy to understand and explain to new players, but I'm not sure about this, what do you guys think?

Thanks much!
~Yakaru


This all just sounds so tricky, because one overall change could make or break a champions strategies. Like Nunu's huge trick is to ult in a brush. In his case, the snowy particles should be revealed in the area, but probably not himself. Even though everyone loves that Ninja ult

This poses a scary threat to any skill shot/targeted spell. I honestly think that if it needs to be one thing across the board, it should be after the spell hits (and does damage), the caster is revealed (if in a brush) for a quick second, only because you can usually tell where they are anyways by the direction of the spell. Ahri's foxfire wouldn't trigger it because it's not a targeted spell or skill shot.

OR

Just change the current ones you listed (Taric, Nunu) that reveal the caster, and instead keep them hidden, and so that would be across the board. Because once again, you already know where they are by where the spell came from.


Delayed AoE abilities, or multiple targeted abilities, are when it would get confusing, like Lux's E, aoe damages/snares, skillshots that go through all targets, etc.

HOWEVER! All SPELLS should be visible AS SOON AS THEY LEAVE THE BRUSH! Like how Akali's stealth change was touched for herself. There have been several discussions about this on the forums (mostly Nidalee's spears "coming from no where") because THAT is when you don't know where the spell came from exactly came from.

I hope all that made sense....


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ILIKETOYTLE

Junior Member

08-27-2013

How about the fog of war glitches where if your looking @ something like baron u might see some auto attacks or something once the enemy comes out of the fog of war. Also a glitch where i see an enemy champ on the map but they are just entering a lane.


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Flodoard

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hi everyone,

I've been quiet for a while so for those of you who who don't know me I'm Yakaru and I'm one of the Senior Gameplay Engineers. I'm pretty well known as a hardcore tabletop gamer and for my Ninja 300 motorcycle.

I've been looking at fog of war and brush and I've noticed a lot of things that are strange, which made me realize the rules for brush/fog aren't as clean and consistent as they could be. If you have a few minutes would you mind sharing your thoughts with me?

Here's some facts:
* Autoattacks will always reveal you through brush
* Nunu's ultimate (Absolute Zero) doesn't reveal him in brush while he's charging
* Blitzcrank Rocket Grabs will show you his fist but not Blitzcrank himself
* Nidalee throwing her spears (Q) also doesn't reveal her
* Taric's Dazzle does reveal him
* Nunu's Iceball will reveal him

I can get into the details of why it's like this, but the more important question is how SHOULD it work and why?

My gut instincts are that any 'aggressive' action should probably reveal you -- if a spell is dealing damage, slows, roots, or stuns, for example, it should reveal the caster. This is an easy to understand rule and is very easy to understand and explain to new players, but I'm not sure about this, what do you guys think?

Thanks much!
~Yakaru
I disagree. I always liked looking at the bushes as being a gambit. they can be safe or they can be a hubbub for assasins. If someone attacks from the bush I don't think you should see them, because it makes it less of a "sneak attack" and more of a regular lane battle.


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Seros WindRunner

Junior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'd actually really like that change. Some sort of, "Recently attacked you from brush, is revealed while within that brush."

I think the current global "you're revealed right now" particle (Nidalee, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw) is okay. It's not used so often that it would overlap itself much, but the particle is pretty intuitive, especially since it is used in other parts of the game.
If this idea of offensive spells revealing the attacker goes trough, I just think Nidalee could get a small passive buff that overcome this. I don't know why, but I think this would work for her, because of her lore and "They will fear the wild." stuff.