Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Abbey Street

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Personal opinion but I like it the way it is (except for Nunu's ult, **** that thing). In the case of skillshots, we don't have to reveal them in all cases as it does tell everyone that he/she's in the brush. However it'd make sense that if the projectile was one that was attached to their user (Blitz/Thresh/Leona/Amumu), then you'd HAVE to reveal them and give all the audio cues so you have some time before you're pulled into oblivion.
That's just me though.


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AbiwonKenabi

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocmerc View Post
Honestly I feel that auto attacks and lock on abilities should always reveal you, but a skillshot/GTAE should not.

...

One last thing, I see people trying to make alot of exceptions to the rule, like how nidalee should have stealth for her spears. While I agree with this, I feel that singling her out to be an exception to a rule (or singling out a few select champions for that matter) is unfair and adds a variable that will act as a knowledge barrier for new players...
^This about sums up my feelings too. A skill shot is dodgable, so using brush to your advantage makes sense. There's already an uncertainty if you will hit or not, do skill shots need more disadvantages to target spells?

Furthermore, if skillshots DO start revealing the user, should the reverse happen as well? Currently on live, most skill shots like Nid spear or Ezreal Q don't reveal a target in bush if they hit, they just make a sound. Should these instead reveal the person in the bush? I personally don't think so, but it's something to think about.


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King Crow15

Junior Member

08-27-2013

Haven't been reading through the whole thread but has anyone else been in a long bush (i.e. the middle bushes on HA or the top and bot lane wall bushes on SR) and an enemy be in the same bush and you lose vision of them while you both are still in the same bush? Or is that just me?


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PsychoSim

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Can there not be a vision indicator when you are in the brush. Much like Eve's indictor. This would communicate to the brush-user of their current state of vision after a spellcast.

I feel like Nunu's ult should, at the very least, reveal the area of effect if it currently doesn't. I should never see my life bar go down without an indication as to why.


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Sonnington

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I hope nothing changes. Nunu having a stealth ultimate is a huge factor to making nunu alright to play. Nunu is barely played as is, if you give vision to his ult it'll be a huge nerf to him. And I don't even play nunu. But when I step into a stealth ult I'm not upset by it, I don't find it cheap or antifun. It is what it is, it's the only one nunu can channel a full ult. Besides, if you're starting to walk slower, you know you're in a nunu ult. Please don't take that away from nunu!

I think the abilities that have stealth from the brush make sense, and the abilities that revel stealth from the brush make sense. And the interection thereof is good. Such as poking your head out from the brush to throw a snowball as nunu, and running backing in to be invisible. That's one of the reasons you need brush control.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etheric42 View Post
Eye of sauron? Kind of like the anti-oracles?
Eye of Sauron

UNIQUE Active: You are now playing Dominion.


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ZerglingOne

Senior Member

08-27-2013

The nunu thing needs to stay. It's one of his few tricks to get a full charge off.

One thing that needs to change is the interaction between true sight and brush. True sight should be independent of visibility, in that the way it works now, if you have an oracle's elixir and you place a green ward in the bush, you can't see anything stealthed inside of the bush without walking in... Which is really dumb.


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IICrowII

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Oh, one more thing about brush that is incredibly nonintuitive:

Ranged champions can determine whether the enemy has vision of you in the brush by seeing if your champion does autoattacks when idle. This can inform you of an enemy's ward, as even if YOU don't know there's a ward in the bush, apparently your champion does.

If the enemy's vision on you should either be public knowledge or it should be secret, not some arcane mix of the two.


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So Skrood

Junior Member

08-27-2013

Here is my idea for handling skill shots / bushes.
1. Champions are revealed for targeted abilities (taric stun)
2. Champions are not revealed for skill shots at all
3. Skill shot animations should be revealed based on fog of war - not bush control.
exceptions - if the skill shot is tied to champion movement (leblanc w, aatrox e) then skill shot animation is not revealed

How this would work out - for Nidalee spears, if you are standing next to brush you would see the entire spear animation from where nidalee cast it all the way out - so it doesn't appear out of brush, it appears in brush (but nidalee remains hidden).

For nunu ult you would not see nunu, but you would see ult on ground. Any ability cast in a bush that extends out of the bush would be treated the same - maokai ult (see circle on ground next to bush), lucent singularity - see circle on ground next to bush if outside bush.

Basically, if the fog of war is dispersed 'over' a brush, you can see all skill shot animations in the brush.

Lets say lux is ulting from her jungle to steal your blue (that you are attacking), and you have 1 ward in the river. You would not see lux or the beginning of her ult - you would see the ult over the ward, then it would be invisible as it crosses into fog of war again - then visible by you and the golumn.

I think using those 3 rules would really simplify programming too - and get rid of invisible spears once and for all


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Targeted abilities and auto-attacks should reveal you from bush. Skillshots and point-blank AoE should not reveal you.

Skills which leave ground-based effects should be visible (the skill, not the champ) outside the bush if some part of that skill extends out of the bush. Some examples: nunu ult, singed clouds, lux E, cassiopeia miasma. If the ability is 100% in the bush or you lack vision of where it leaves the bush, it's completely hidden. Singed clouds would only be visible outside the bush - you couldn't see the extra clouds formed as re runs further through the bush.

I think this is the fairest and most consistent way of solving these issues, and is consistent with how the majority of the game currently works. You can't see nidalee spear until it leaves the bush, but it's visible the moment it does. Why shouldn't the same general concept apply to something like nunu ult? If you don't have any vision, you can't see it. If you have partial vision of it, you can see it all. Neither reveal their respective casters.

Now a more interesting discussion would be ducking in and out of brush. When I play ADC, I love to stand just inside the bush. Walk out, last-hit, walk in. This way, I'm not revealed for any extra duration. Just for the attack. I abuse this whenever I can to get free poke. Not only does it leave almost no chance for counter-attack, it instantly drops minion aggro.