Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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MisterBlake

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Hi there Yakaru! I don't actually use the LoL forums much (I was directed here by the RoG 'red tracker') so I haven't really read more than your first post, so if this has been mentioned I apologise. Strictly speaking the issue I wanted to bring up isn't related to vision of champions when they use abilities but it is most definitely related to FoW and Brush interaction with abilities. As a Plat player on NA and Diamond on OCE I think my feelings toward this issue are not a result of ignorance but rather experience. So basically the number one thing in the whole game that annoys me (and is almost enough to ruin the experience of the game in dire cases) is how some abilities 'fizzle' when interacting with FoW or Brush. Basically this only affects targeted abilities which causes some people to say it's okay but I would make use of that favourite LoL term 'toxic' to describe the interaction. Basically when I use an ability on someone as they enter FoW or Brush, there is a chance the ability will completely fail, I'm sure we've all noticed this (myself I notice it almost every game), even after the ability's animation has begun. When I am in range to use an ability, I have sent my input to use the ability to the server, the server has acknowledged and begun to carry out the action, and yet it does not complete, that is 'toxic' gameplay design in my honest opinion. Far too many times this has happened and caused me to waste a summoner spell or long cd to finish the fleeing opponent off, or even worse feeling when they escape with less than 1 bar of health because I start running backwards after casting thinking they are dead. Sorry for the wall of text, I will admit that ability 'fizzling' is nowhere near as bad as it was a few years ago, but this aspect of it seems to have been so overlooked (if not, again, my apologies). Thanks for reading this if you have, I hope you will reply as I'd love to hear Riot's stance on the issue. Oh and I more thing, quite similar but not due to FoW or Brush, is autoattacks cancelling due to being interrupted by movement AFTER the projectile (arrow, bullet, etc.) is already 'in-flight', again one could argue that it's fair because the player moved but if that is the case a visual representation that the projectile has not yet been launched seems important to me. Cheers, Shadow.
EDIT: while I'm here - please make Singed's poison visible when he's in FoW, Brush or just died (not him, just the poison), sucks to die via invisible poison.


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Fenragg

Recruiter

08-26-2013

Short and sweet: I feel like dodging in and out of bushes to attack/stop being attacked is a part of the game. It's a skill people learn, just like CSing. Please don't take that away.


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Nilous7

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Would these changes make Fiddlesticks visible while channeling his ult? If so, that's a HUGE punishment to him...


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Rivini

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
I just thought of this right now:
Have it so when you're in brush and not doing anything, a small icon appears next to the HP/MP bar above your champion that depicts a patch of grass. If you do something that would reveal you, it goes away.

Here's a quick example I made. The grass should be more "cartoony" and look more like an icon so it stands out better, but I'm not an artist, sadly.
Name:  League of Legends HUD.jpg
Views: 111
Size:  64.4 KB


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Telanor

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Junior Member

08-26-2013

While you're on the topic of brush behavior... you guys should look into the bug where you can't see an enemy that's standing in the same bush as you. Usually it happens in the bottom lane bush of SR, the one on the left side of the middle of the lane. You stand on the very left edge, enemy stands on the very right edge (of the same bush) and you won't be able to see each other.


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Sylux26

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Is Zed's shadow revealed if it is created in the bush when you are positioned out of it?


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CBlazer

Senior Member

08-26-2013

RE: Stepping out of a bush causes enemy autoattacker inside bush to disappear, even though he would've been continuously revealed if you had never been in the bush in the first place...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
I'm actually quite familiar with the issue you describe as I touched that part of the game just recently and in fact caused the behavior change you request. We changed it back (my current changes are to fix bugs, not change behavior), but this would be very doable if everyone agrees this is preferable
Well then, I agree your fix is preferable.


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X Night Light X

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hi everyone,

I've been quiet for a while so for those of you who who don't know me I'm Yakaru and I'm one of the Senior Gameplay Engineers. I'm pretty well known as a hardcore tabletop gamer and for my Ninja 300 motorcycle.

I've been looking at fog of war and brush and I've noticed a lot of things that are strange, which made me realize the rules for brush/fog aren't as clean and consistent as they could be. If you have a few minutes would you mind sharing your thoughts with me?

Here's some facts:
* Autoattacks will always reveal you through brush
* Nunu's ultimate (Absolute Zero) doesn't reveal him in brush while he's charging
* Blitzcrank Rocket Grabs will show you his fist but not Blitzcrank himself
* Nidalee throwing her spears (Q) also doesn't reveal her
* Taric's Dazzle does reveal him
* Nunu's Iceball will reveal him

I can get into the details of why it's like this, but the more important question is how SHOULD it work and why?

My gut instincts are that any 'aggressive' action should probably reveal you -- if a spell is dealing damage, slows, roots, or stuns, for example, it should reveal the caster. This is an easy to understand rule and is very easy to understand and explain to new players, but I'm not sure about this, what do you guys think?

Thanks much!
~Yakaru
first rioter ever to present a smart post, i concur


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Damonische

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Recruiter

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
I think it would work if your model stopped being transparent.
You would still have that weird aura of transparent leaves but your character would be solid.
Of course that might look weird too.


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Gaggle of Koalas

Senior Member

08-26-2013

How about vector skills revealing you? Basically anything originating from you and outwards to your opponent. This would reveal autoattacks, dazzle, snowball, spear, etc, but wouldn't reveal a karthas skittle, or malzahar pool.

Basically, from a logic standpoint, your champ can kind of intuitively know where an enemy is based on the direction a skill is coming from, but if it's just popping up out of nowhere you really have no clue.

It makes some interesting play possibilities too. If you're playing Xerath, do you want to fire off your Q or E, since it would reveal you, or just slam them a few times with R and be a little safer from retaliation?