Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Breakstar

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

I think that 'indirect' attacks and abilities shouldn't reveal. Mushrooms, traps, Heimer turrets (should reveal themselves, but not Heimer), Zyra plants...

A brush-placed Trundle Pillar is also invisible from outside the bush, even as it's slowing you. This should probably be changed.

What about Pantheon ult? Currently (IIRC), it's invisible if you don't have sight of the center of the landing spot. Meaning if you jump in an unwarded bush, they don't see the circle or the landing. I like knowing this trick, but it should probably be visible regardless, like Shaco poofs through fog.


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Yakaru

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Senior Software Engineer

08-26-2013
7 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by innervation View Post
In terms of reproducing the "mini map teleport bug" (I'm assuming you're talking about the bug where as someone is appearing out of fog of war, it shows them for a split second on the mini map in a location they were at some unknowable time ago?). I notice that happening mostly on junglers, and it shows them at the last major buff they took (red or blue golem) for about .5 to .75 seconds on the mini map at their jungle location before you realize that they are in a lane, gankin ur carries. Or something like that.
Yes, this jives with what I've seen too. The problem is it doesn't happen every time the jungler pops out. We're trying to get something consistent internally -- will help track it down as well as let us verify a fix actually fixes it. Trust me, I want to smash this bug. Hard. In fact it is one of the reasons I've been digging into the vision system recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by innervation View Post
In terms of the OP - "how should it work" I think it would be fair that all auto attacks reveal you in all situations, while no skills do (unless the live team thinks a skill is so op that it needs to reveal OR unless you guys want to get super realistic with it and say "oh lux is firing her super bright ult - that should reveal her") I don't really care as long as its consistent.
I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint -- if I can't explain the rules to a new player in a couple of sentences I'm a bit worried. Sort of an Occam's Razor principle.


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LiptonSwagger

Senior Member

08-26-2013

One thing that isn't quite what you're talking about but that I think is relevant, is that it's really weird that bushes drop aggro. So I'll right click on a champion and then they'll go into a bush and then my champion will just stand around doing nothing, when I feel that at the very least my champion should follow them into the bush, and ideally should then keep trying to auto-attack them or use a spell I commanded before they entered the bush.


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AikoSachi

Senior Member

08-26-2013

@Yak, I'd like to make the suggestion that it may be a good idea to only reveal you while your inside brush if the skill is some type of AoE that extends outside the brush.

With SkillShots, and short-range auto-attacks it doesn't seem like that big a deal to leave it as is, as it just can be considered "Map Control" which should give you that advantage, Of course nothing is going to stop them from chucking their own skillshots, or spells straight into that bush, or popping a ward in the bush.

Maybe a significant improvement to not being able to see those that are attacking you from the brush would be to allow Wards to see anywhere inside their range, even if they are not placed directly in the brush? Not quite sure how that would change game-mechanics.


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Breakstar

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08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint -- if I can't explain the rules to a new player in a couple of sentences I'm a bit worried. Sort of an Occam's Razor principle.
The way it makes sense to me is this:
"Targeted abilities, including auto attacks, reveal. 'Instant' abilities such as Cho'gath's W do, too. Skillshots (such as Rupture or Mystic Shot) do not."
Not a perfect definition, of course. But it's what comes to mind for me.


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Ariel the Cruel

Senior Member

08-26-2013

simple concept:

Applying effects/damage to an enemy directly will reveal them (AA's, skills, Ahri's Fox fire, Nunu's Ult, etc.).
Indirect application will not reveal (traps, Yorik's gouls, Zyra's plants, etc.)

Will this permit the tank to intentionaly get hit by a Nid spear to reveal her? Yes.
Is this reasonable since the tank is willingly taking damage? yes.

Personal opinion.


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Iron Nick

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
NUNU:
* "Im 729 elo" made a great point that at least showing the particle effect may be a good compromise. This also is consistent with skill shot behavior -- I see the mystic shot from brush, but I don't see the giant orb of ice.
If we were to change Nunu, though, we would definitely balance him appropriately, and I would defer to the Live Design team to make the right calls on changes there.
I think a good compromise would be to show particles on people who get slowed by Nunu. That way, as long as no one walks in, it's invisible, but you can get a hint as soon as one person is in range. Showing the AoE circle would probably be too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
SKILL SHOTS:
Squippit had the thoughts of revealing when a skill shot 'lands'
* pro: this makes sense (you damaged someone, brush drops, if you don't damage them you stay hidden).
* con: I can see it leading to my tank purposefully taking that nid spear so we can jump on her.
is that good counterplay or punishing someone for successfully using their spear?

Another interesting one to consider: if I'm playing Ahri and cast Foxfire (W), should that expose Ahri? Should she be exposed when one flame acquires onto an enemy minion or champion?
As mentioned above, I entirely agree with the idea that skillshots should reveal upon impact. Abilities like Ahri's W or Heimer's rockets are an exception by many standards. I think revealing them upon impact would be fine too. In fact that should be the case for everything, including targeted abilities and auto-attacks : reveal once it deals damage or otherwise affects the target (instead of upon cast).
As for Nidalee, tanks SHOULD already try to take the spear to protect their carries. It only makes sense that Nid would be revealed when she hits a target, whether it was the intended target or a bodyguard.


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Renaito Yuujou

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

I'm sure it's already been said, but there was a big to-do about Nunu's ult and bush vision some months ago. So long as Nunu is able to continue using the hidden-in-a-bush-ulting tactic, then clean up as much as you'd like.


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Morior Invictis

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I feel that the answer to this should be very simple.

If an ability from an enemy affects me at all, such as damage or CC, it should reveal them (Excluding traps, shrooms or other AI objects once placed). This would mean skillshots only reveal the caster if it does damage. I personally think that if a tank is going to take a nidalee spear, that IS counterplay. It means he will sacrifice a portion of his health to have vision on her for a few seconds.

I would also like to mention a bug I have noticed. If the enemy has a ward in a bush that someone teleports on, I (the opposition) can still see the teleport animation in the bush even if we do not have it warded at the time.

This creates unfair advantages so that I can know to back off even if I had no vision of the brush.


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LegatusUrsus

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnFuBaR View Post
so how goes that heimerdinger rework eh... eh? you know that one that is supposedly in the works for 3 ish years. ya that one
Let's leave the Software Engineers out of this, they don't design the champions, or their reworks.

On topic.

My single issue with brushes are some of the graphical gremlins that happen, where while standing in the brush a square around your character shows the texture for the outside of the brush rather than the inside. I don't lose any function of the brush, it's just bothersome to look at while standing there.

I do not think that preparatory actions, like Ahri's Foxfire or Twisted Fate's Pick a Card should reveal you in the bush, until damage has been dealt. You haven't done anything hostile yet, you just happen to be setting up for it.

Also is there any way to make Valor Transparent when he lands on Quinn's wrist while she stands in the brush during her idle animation?