Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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SnFuBaR

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

so how goes that heimerdinger rework eh... eh? you know that one that is supposedly in the works for 3 ish years. ya that one


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dj Burt

Junior Member

08-26-2013

CAITLYN:
Make Caitlyn not seen while she is channeling her ultimate from the bush.
Make Caitlyn's target line indicator from her ultimate invisible when channeling from the bush.
Reveal Caitlyn, target line indicator and projectile when Ultimate is fired off.

Caitlyn is a sniper.
Leaves some counterplay for last second body blocks and barriers.

Upvote for Agree!
Downvote for Disagree!


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Iron Nick

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
* Autoattacks will always reveal you through brush
Necessary. It would be absurd for a ranged ADC to constantly damage you while remaining invisible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
* Nunu's ultimate (Absolute Zero) doesn't reveal him in brush while he's charging
That's fine, since people can still notice the slow effect (and shouldn't facecheck in the first place).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
* Blitzcrank Rocket Grabs will show you his fist but not Blitzcrank himself
* Nidalee throwing her spears (Q) also doesn't reveal her
Makes sense just like for any skillshot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
My gut instincts are that any 'aggressive' action should probably reveal you -- if a spell is dealing damage, slows, roots, or stuns, for example, it should reveal the caster. This is an easy to understand rule and is very easy to understand and explain to new players, but I'm not sure about this, what do you guys think?

Thanks much!
~Yakaru
Agreed, this is already how it works for most spells afaik, so I dont think there would be much trouble if you homogenize it. Basically, channels (Fiddle / Nunu) shouldn't reveal the caster because he hasn't done anything yet, skillshots should be visible for fairness but not the caster (at least not until the skillshot hits). However, anything that CC or deals damage should reveal the caster for a short duration.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dj Burt View Post
CAITLYN:
Make Caitlyn not seen while she is channeling her ultimate from the bush.
Make Caitlyn's target line indicator from her ultimate invisible when channeling from the bush.
Reveal Caitlyn, target line indicator and projectile when Ultimate is fired off.

Caitlyn is a sniper.
Leaves some counterplay for last second body blocks and barriers.

Upvote for Agree!
Downvote for Disagree!
I'd say show the laser coming from the bush, because it's a goddamn laser, it's hard to miss. Just like any skillshot (tho it's not one, technically). However there's no reason why Caitlyn herself (nor the part of the laser inside the bush) should be revealed until she fires. That leaves her vulnerable even tho she's supposed to be hidden. I mean, it would be like Karthus becoming visible in bushes when he channels his ult, it doesn't make sense.


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Stereo Mime

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Another thing that I find annoying, is if a player attacks you from a bush, you have plenty of time to attack back of get off a spell or 2. But if they step just out of the bush, attack, then go back in, they instantly disappear. It may also be the case that if they even attack from inside the bush, then just step out and back into the bush, they instantly go invis well before the time that they would normally have been revealed. This doesnt happen a lot, but I think some people have gotten good at exploiting it.

In general, I would say that doing damage should reveal you if you are in a bush, but also make you remain visible if entering a bush during that same duration. I however dont think that someone throwing a skillshot that misses should reveal you.


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Yakaru

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Senior Software Engineer

08-26-2013
6 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn View Post
Also go buy a 500cc Suzuki GSXR. It makes Ninja's...well it makes them feel bad about what they are ;P
There's a joke among my motorcyling friends: Wrecked my first bike, time for a GSXR. :P
Honestly I can't imagine wanting anything bigger than my 300 either. But ride what you want -- I'm tiny so a tiny bike 'fits' me.


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innervation

Senior Member

08-26-2013

In terms of reproducing the "mini map teleport bug" (I'm assuming you're talking about the bug where as someone is appearing out of fog of war, it shows them for a split second on the mini map in a location they were at some unknowable time ago?). I notice that happening mostly on junglers, and it shows them at the last major buff they took (red or blue golem) for about .5 to .75 seconds on the mini map at their jungle location before you realize that they are in a lane, gankin ur carries. Or something like that.

In terms of the OP - "how should it work" I think it would be fair that all auto attacks reveal you in all situations, while no skills do (unless the live team thinks a skill is so op that it needs to reveal OR unless you guys want to get super realistic with it and say "oh lux is firing her super bright ult - that should reveal her") I don't really care as long as its consistent.


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Aardison1

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Member

08-26-2013

seeing something coming out of the bush like a skill shot or trail on the ground should have consistency with what is shown and what isn't. Skill shots that are visible as they leave the bush though add a lot by removing the frustration of what just hit/killed me that a lot of players have. though some cases and interactions should remain such as nunu ults or a fiz fishy on the edge of a bush etc. Basically anything that can retain that good play moment of bush plays should stay bush jukes skill cast in bush at the ground in a bush that someone walks into shouldn't telegraph that they are occurring within it imo.


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Squippit

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
SKILL SHOTS:
Squippit had the thoughts of revealing when a skill shot 'lands'
* pro: this makes sense (you damaged someone, brush drops, if you don't damage them you stay hidden).
* con: I can see it leading to my tank purposefully taking that nid spear so we can jump on her.
is that good counterplay or punishing someone for successfully using their spear?
That's the point, she should have to risk giving up her stealth if she's going to try to attack. If an ADC attacks you with their ranged abilities, they're revealed because the projectiles always hit, as we have agreed it should be with point n clicks. This makes sense. Skillshots are fired with the intention of hitting. An ADC fires shots with the intention of hitting. The different being, on live, an ADC knows they'll be revealed whilst Nid doesnt have to take that risk. However, if it doesn't hit, she hasnt negatively influence the enemy team in anyway.

I'm not 100% sure how things are on the live client at the moment, so feel free to point out if I've made a mistake in my reasoning.


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D1 Jungler Lexxy

Member

08-26-2013

Nidalee spears? Nidalee throws javelins, a much more lighter and dispensable weapon, specifically designed to be thrown. This was adopted shortly after humans migrated into the lower half of Europe, allowing a much less costly and effective attack when fighting beasts for food.


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exec3

Senior Member

08-26-2013

As others have probably said Nunu ult is an intentional special case scenario because it's very satisfying for the Nunu to trap people I believe. I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other but showing the particle sounds like a decent compromise.

Skillshots shouldn't reveal the attacker imo, I think it's a satisfying strategic thing that has sufficient counterplay (as long as the invisible skillshot bug doesn't rear its ugly head!). I also don't like your skillshot suggestion of revealing on hit because it introduces counter-intuitive play (I WANT to get hit by that big damaging ability!) and removes some harassment gameplay in lane.

In regards to Taric's Dazzle and Nunu's Ice Blast I definitely think this is inconsistent, if you have a direct target spell it should definitely reveal you from brush imo.