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[8/23/2013] Tentative PBE Changes & Discussion (3.11)

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Oca

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Hi there dev team!

As a jungler main could you look into making ryze a better leasher? My buddy plays ryze and he'll just autoattack once since their Q or E (if i'm an AP jungler) ranges don't allow them to cast a spell on it. You don't have to buff his range necessarily; thinning the wall would also work. This always happens when I start Red buff but I think there is one place ryze can leash better from on Blue buff.

Also the bug that has been plaguing Caitlyn's ult when a target walks into a bush now happens on his Q, W, and E.


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SnFuBaR

Senior Member

08-26-2013

hey how about that heimerdinger rework thats been in the works for over 3 years?


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SnFuBaR

Senior Member

08-26-2013

hey how about that heimerdinger rework thats been in the works for 3 years


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thresholden

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I agree entirely with SonictheHedgedawg on how Fiora's ult should feel. I understand that Blade Waltz on paper looks like an overpowered ultimate, which is why the designers wanted to give enemies a lot of counterplay against it, but there is too many ways to counteract her ultimate. See this video for some examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNDfiF5Pfgk

And while enemies have numerous amounts of counterplay to her ultimate, Fiora has zero counterplay to their counterplays. Its her only real defense as a squishy, melee, cc-less, escape-less champion, while also being half of her damage potential. Its too much offense and defense packed into one inconsistent skill, making Fiora's kit as a whole very weak. Maybe I'm alone in feeling this way but I'd trade some of Fiora's potential but inconsistent power from her ultimate, for a more reliable kit in her regular abilities.

Also because I can't control which targets I hit with R, its kind of a crapshoot as to how much damage it does in teamfights because it depends on the enemies positioning. I just press R and pray for 1.25 seconds. Here's an idea, what if reactivating R during Fiora's R animation, directs the rest of its strikes to the initial target? That way, Fiora players can choose whether to spread out R's damage or focus it on one champion. It would go a making the skill feel more useful and consistent.


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Volty

Recruiter

08-26-2013

Quote:
SonicTheHedgedawg:
- It will not pop projectiles
- It will not protect you from DoT damage
- It will not delay damage
- It will not clear turret agro.
- It is occasionally vulnerable to skill shots mid-ult
- Bots, with their insane timing, can target you during it.


Some skills are about popping projectiles and effectively blocking or counterspelling incoming attacks. Some skills are about providing a period of untargetability so that no new attacks can be made. Blade Waltz is in the latter camp. You can partly tell because it has a cast time, which I wouldn't condone for a skill that is meant to be used to interrupt incoming attacks like Vlad pool or Fizz's hop.

So that's why it doesn't pop projectiles. That's also why it doesn't block DoT damage.

I'm not sure I understand delaying damage. From what I can tell, Yi's Alpha Strike doesn't delay projectiles or damage. I've also asked around about this, and so I'm pretty sure he doesn't delay anything. It might be that he seems like he's delaying but from carefully watching your health displayed at the bottom center of the UI you can see that damage is applied on time.

Blade Waltz does actually clear turret aggro, but turrets are (right now) trying to reacquire Fiora as a target when she damages enemies under the turret. The game visually suggests that this is working, when in fact the turret aggro is re-dropped as Fiora is untargetable. She can be picked up again by the turret after she comes out of the ult.

I've tested and you can't be struck by skill shots or area of effect spells during Blade Waltz. Same for bots targeting me during the effect. I've tried this out against bots repeatedly, slowing the game down to carefully examine the interaction, and Annie bots will patiently wait to cast their Disintegrates until Blade Waltz is entirely complete.

I hope this helps clear up some of the understanding around Blade Waltz's behaviors. I'm personally very excited to play with the more consistent version of Blade Waltz coming out in 3.11.


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thresholden

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Volty:
Some skills are about popping projectiles and effectively blocking or counterspelling incoming attacks. Some skills are about providing a period of untargetability so that no new attacks can be made. Blade Waltz is in the latter camp. You can partly tell because it has a cast time, which I wouldn't condone for a skill that is meant to be used to interrupt incoming attacks like Vlad pool or Fizz's hop.

So that's why it doesn't pop projectiles. That's also why it doesn't block DoT damage.

I'm not sure I understand delaying damage. From what I can tell, Yi's Alpha Strike doesn't delay projectiles or damage. I've also asked around about this, and so I'm pretty sure he doesn't delay anything. It might be that he seems like he's delaying but from carefully watching your health displayed at the bottom center of the UI you can see that damage is applied on time.

Blade Waltz does actually clear turret aggro, but turrets are (right now) trying to reacquire Fiora as a target when she damages enemies under the turret. The game visually suggests that this is working, when in fact the turret aggro is re-dropped as Fiora is untargetable. She can be picked up again by the turret after she comes out of the ult.

I've tested and you can't be struck by skill shots or area of effect spells during Blade Waltz. Same for bots targeting me during the effect. I've tried this out against bots repeatedly, slowing the game down to carefully examine the interaction, and Annie bots will patiently wait to cast their Disintegrates until Blade Waltz is entirely complete.

I hope this helps clear up some of the understanding around Blade Waltz's behaviors. I'm personally very excited to play with the more consistent version of Blade Waltz coming out in 3.11.


Having two different kinds of untargetability seems confusing. Why shouldn't Fiora's ultimate behave like Fizz's and Vlad's? Its her only defensive tool, W hardly counts.

I don't have video evidence of this but myself and other Fiora players all report getting occasionally cc'ed or damaged by AOE skills during her ultimate. You report that you can't replicate this but would you mind checking again? The frequency that's I've seen and heard it happen suggests otherwise.

Also, why is Fiora's ultimate a channel time instead of a casting time? It makes canceling Fiora's ultimate with cc relatively easy on its first strike. It would also explain why some people report getting knocked out midair despite having valid targets. I'm guessing that the speed and randomness of each of Fiora's subsequent channels makes it hard to replicate but I think that when Fiora appears for her channels, she's actually hittable by AOE spells.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Volty:
Some skills are about popping projectiles and effectively blocking or counterspelling incoming attacks. Some skills are about providing a period of untargetability so that no new attacks can be made. Blade Waltz is in the latter camp. You can partly tell because it has a cast time, which I wouldn't condone for a skill that is meant to be used to interrupt incoming attacks like Vlad pool or Fizz's hop.

So that's why it doesn't pop projectiles. That's also why it doesn't block DoT damage.

I'm not sure I understand delaying damage. From what I can tell, Yi's Alpha Strike doesn't delay projectiles or damage. I've also asked around about this, and so I'm pretty sure he doesn't delay anything. It might be that he seems like he's delaying but from carefully watching your health displayed at the bottom center of the UI you can see that damage is applied on time.

Blade Waltz does actually clear turret aggro, but turrets are (right now) trying to reacquire Fiora as a target when she damages enemies under the turret. The game visually suggests that this is working, when in fact the turret aggro is re-dropped as Fiora is untargetable. She can be picked up again by the turret after she comes out of the ult.

I've tested and you can't be struck by skill shots or area of effect spells during Blade Waltz. Same for bots targeting me during the effect. I've tried this out against bots repeatedly, slowing the game down to carefully examine the interaction, and Annie bots will patiently wait to cast their Disintegrates until Blade Waltz is entirely complete.

I hope this helps clear up some of the understanding around Blade Waltz's behaviors. I'm personally very excited to play with the more consistent version of Blade Waltz coming out in 3.11.


Maybe the bot thing has been fixed, but I can say that, if I dive as fiora, and ult the enemy, and my jungle dives with me, if I had turret aggro when I ulted, even though the aggro SHOULD have been dropped and transferred to the tankier jungler, I keep it as Fiora, and the turret starts hitting me again as soon as I come out of it, even if the enemy dies during My ultimate. It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens most of the time. Again a consistency issue.

As for delaying damage on yi, I always thought it worked that way since beta. Maybe I misunderstood it or maybe it changed in the remake.

As for some skills being primarily defensive and some offensive, that's fine, but using the blanket term "untargetable" for everything from Zhonya's to Blade Waltz is really inconsistent.


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Riot Pwyff:
Speaking of build stability, I'll copy paste the same thing I mentioned on EUW about Olaf not being in 3.11 now:

We're actually planning to pull him from this build. With the World Finals coming up, build stability is of incredible importance, so we're being extra careful. If this were just a regular patch we might be okay with trying out Olaf but this isn't the case.

Morello has mentioned that Live Design is happy with Olaf's overall design direction, but there are certain build considerations (bug fixes, etc) to take into account. So there we have that.


Thanks for the clarification update Pwyff gutted I'll have to wait a bit longer but hey these things happen. It *is* important to have a stable build for worlds. Sooo can't wait to try him out though -_-


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SonicTheHedgedawg

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
thresholden:
Having two different kinds of untargetability seems confusing. Why shouldn't Fiora's ultimate behave like Fizz's and Vlad's? Its her only defensive tool, W hardly counts.

I don't have video evidence of this but myself and other Fiora players all report getting occasionally cc'ed or damaged by AOE skills during her ultimate. You report that you can't replicate this but would you mind checking again? The frequency that's I've seen and heard it happen suggests otherwise.

Also, why is Fiora's ultimate a channel time instead of a casting time? It makes canceling Fiora's ultimate with cc relatively easy on its first strike. It would also explain why some people report getting knocked out midair despite having valid targets. I'm guessing that the speed and randomness of each of Fiora's subsequent channels makes it hard to replicate but I think that when Fiora appears for her channels, she's actually hittable by AOE spells.

Yeah. I am almost positive that Fiora WILL take damage if she waltzes over persistent AoE during her ultimate, which is really stupid because she can't control that. Also, Blade Waltz should probably break tethers because being fiddle drained during your ultimate creates an awkward situation where you are actually taking more damage FROM your Blade Waltz target than you are dealing to them, and it doesn't feel like you should be able to be "attacked" by things like drain or death lotus during Blade Waltz. Ignite doing damage, fine, but anything not a Dot already on you, please no.

Also, I am fairly sure that Karthus's Requiem and Zed's death mark can strike you mid ultimate (though it may only happen when Fiora is acquiring her next target during the Waltz), which is not consistent with any other untargetable ability, even alpha strike.


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thresholden

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
SonicTheHedgedawg:
Yeah. I am almost positive that Fiora WILL take damage if she waltzes over persistent AoE during her ultimate, which is really stupid because she can't control that. Also, Blade Waltz should probably break tethers because being fiddle drained during your ultimate creates an awkward situation where you are actually taking more damage FROM your Blade Waltz target than you are dealing to them, and it doesn't feel like you should be able to be "attacked" by things like drain or death lotus during Blade Waltz. Ignite doing damage, fine, but anything not a Dot already on you, please no.

Also, I am fairly sure that Karthus's Requiem and Zed's death mark can strike you mid ultimate (though it may only happen when Fiora is acquiring her next target during the Waltz), which is not consistent with any other untargetable ability, even alpha strike.


I'm okay with tethers persisting through Fiora's ultimate because it does the same with Fizz and Vlad. Zhonya's effect should be relabeled simply as "stasis" since its effect is basically unique (except Lissandra's ult on herself, but I'm unsure.)

Edit: Does Maokai's W or Zed's ultimate pop abilities like Elise's Rappel? I thought they did but maybe I'm wrong. Just another reason to change these terms.