I got Plat II playing almost exclusively Swain

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Fubby3

Senior Member

08-26-2013

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GoodBadUglyHoe

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Heimerdinge's rework info was promised over 2 months ago. Why give a specific time table if you can't come within two months it?
If you set a deadline hit it, otherwise don't set one and go with your SOON TM line. People don't like being lied to. A little professionalism goes a long way.


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rangerike1363

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Still following this post just cause i'm interested in the discussion - but prolly not gonna do pointed responses to questions unless i see something that i can harmlessly jump in on.

And since i've still seen posts about it: Not reworking Swain. Please read the first post u.u

Still, it's given me a lot to think about for QoL changes/improvements that can be made to Swain players, since he's definitely on the clunkier side of things. Thanks for being so clear and concise dudes - i'm really feelin' the birdvibes
Swain is one of my go-to mages along with Ahri and Viktor (yes I "main" Viktor) and I've found that though his damage is all DOT, you're really playing mindgames with your opponents all game. They don't FEEL like you're doing a lot of damage and you don't FEEL like you're doing a lot of damage but I don't know how many times my q or q+ignite finished off someone running under their turret while I'm still farming or someone "escapes" the lost/losing teamfight "alive" only to have my DOT finish them off...which usually elicits either a "wtf swain OP" from the enemy or "I didn't think you did that much damage!" in all chat. Swain also destroys any melee mage or assassin you can send mid because with a doran's he gets like 10 mana a minion kill and you can just harass them out of lane easily. To me, he feels like a tactician. Your ult and w uses a ton of mana and your w is one of the hardest skillshots to land in the game without his slow applied, but when you use the Master Tactician correctly, he's probably one of the most powerful mages right now, just don't expect him to instaburst people down...though going 7/0 in lane changes that...

Really I think QoL changes would be much like Cho's knockup change where it normalized the "hit time" so that you don't feel as if you should have hit, but you didn't and times when you thought you'd miss, but you hit. That would probably help quite a bit with his w as it's already a delayed root especially since Zyra's line root moves faster and can hit just as many, if not more targets easier. Also, I'm not sure if his q and e have the same cast range (they're really close if I remember right but q is slightly longer), but I feel they should have the same cast range so you don't hit the q, but can't get the e off because they are faster than you and that combo with w is a lot of your damage pre-6.


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NA Rukhron

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
As stated before: I appreciate the DoT's.

1 - I do feel I don't have enough itens (or item slots ) to build. I'm mostly forced into sacrificing stats or special effects I want every game (and more than 1 parameter). The problem I believe Swain has is that by the time he fulfilled his need he is at the 2nd-3rd item while still lacking on fulfilling his desires (or vice-versa) but even at 6 itens he doesn't hyper-scale to compensate. (Through he does do lots of damage earlier).

2 - Here comes the list
Add a better animation to innate (crows festering in the corpse) - this will help new Swain players understand something is happening when they last hit.
Add a halo of R range while morphed (again, new swain players can get hold of what is happening easier)
Add "Prioritizes champions you've damaged with basic attacks or other abilities" to ultimate target priority.

3 - Swain is crazily deceptive (and I love this because it is what mostly reflects his lore on the champion - to mentally toy with enemies and triumph over the mistakes I induced). Of course Nevermove has the strategist feeling when I announce the charge simply by well-aiming it (and my teammates flock over enemies like ravenous crows ).
He has an deceptive ammount of toughness out of his self-healing and conceals an amazing ammount of damage over a duration. It is always satisfying to "flee for my life" while I'm actually winning by toying around with enemies during my cooldowns.
It is also pretty fun how crow form and beatrice (Q) can induce fear of enemies making their movement be more predictable (Nevermove!).

So basically Swain's epicness is manipulate enemies and allies into the course of action you desire.

3a)
Finally having mana - Seriously, no matter how much mana Swain have he manages to burn it all. This could be solved by adding an "scale by X% of enemy health" (more health means I spent more mana to kill anyway) to the innate - I shy away from having it "farm" maximum mana as Sion does with HP because it shoehornes Swain into Seraph. It could be healthy for balance to have it replenishes double on champion kills so that value doesn't need to be uber-high against minions to feel rewarding against champions. Also: Assists should grant mana from innate - Why should I be a DoT mage trying to get killing blows?
And I'm saying this because having to have crazytons of mana, damage and toughness make me have to sacrifice at least one (can't be a DoT mage who doesn't live enough to build up damage or doesn't sustain his own damage or takes too long to do damage). I'm not saying to buff Athene's, but the fact it was the Holy Grail of a Golden Age for Swain does indicate a problem (It was too easy to get strong with it the way it was because it solved manasustain/cdr and gave 90AP 40MR)


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Insomniac Enigma

Member

08-26-2013

As a player who mains Swain alongside Ziggs and THE DEFENDER OF TOMRROW (Jayce), I'd love to see some QoL changes to one of the most undervalued champs in the game. He's especially fun top lane since his snare + range can just destroy a lot of top laners.

As for the points for Scarizard's enjoyment:
1. I always feel like I need a few more items. I try to build mana/mana regen, CDR, then HP/resists, but I don't usually have the room to build what I want. Usually my build would be something like RoA > boots > Seraphs > Liandry's > Zhonya's and the situational 6th item which usually becomes either a Rylai's or an Abyssal. I kinda hate being shoehorned into buying lots of mana/mana regen because his ult drains a crapton of mana if you leave it toggled for more than a few seconds.

2. A bit more base AD to help with last hitting, making it so his Q does damage up front and damage over time (not sure who suggested that), something on the ult so it doesn't drain mana so damn fast, more HP per level, a bit more range and a bit more base movement speed so he can get to his target easier (maybe some bonus movement speed when his ult is active). It would be nice if he was closer/above Ryze stat-wise, since he doesn't scale nearly as hard as him. They are both close-range mages with no non-flash gap closers yet Ryze has more HP and Mana per level as well as higher range than Swain.
On a side note it would be interesting (at least worth a try) if he gained mana per kill, like Sion's E. It would remedy the mana problem and it could be a bit interesting lore-wise

3. I feel like he's like this general that tries to fight with his army as a giant demon bird, using his abilities to strategically zone part of the enemy team/eliminate a specific person while healing off of their misery.
3a. Currently he's pretty damn powerful, except for the fact that if you aren't very careful you will have no mana and he's very blue buff dependent. I love how I can just look at a carry and with a quick combo just erase them from existence while laughing at the enemy team who was unable to stop me. I also love how, with proper Nevermove usage, I can just laugh at the enemy jungler who tried to gank me as I simply walk away (or, do what I've done before in ranked, and kill both the jungler and the enemy laner).



A side note about the guide, you may want to add Viktor as a hard counter to Swain (seriously, it's rather ironic that a rarely played champ counters another rarely played champ). Anyone with a shield can just counter Swain with his DoT, but it's rather hilarious how hard Viktor just destroys Swain. His Power Transfer just nullifies the damage from your E, his Gravity Field will just stop you if you even try to fight him, and his laser will poke you if you try to farm/get in range, plus his Chaos Storm will absolutely obliterate you. Even if you pull ahead of Viktor, he can still beat you. If someone locks in Viktor against you as Swain, go top instead, otherwise you will just lost your lane hard.


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cKumo

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS1496b8f95ed58e3cab95c View Post
Personally I think the reason Swain is either op snowballed or useless is because of the ultimate. The heal is based of how much damage is dealt to the target - if your ahead you have more ap, more levels and more penetration than the other team, in effect amplifying the healing threefold, giving you free defensive stats from building pure AP. If you are behind, the enemy team has more magic resistance (from levels and items), you have less AP and penetration from items, also less defensive stats. the damage you do is reduced drastically and so is the healing as a consequence. Riot needs to separate the heal and damage dealt but making the heal a flat amount scaling with AP - this prevents the heal scaling with penetration, reduces his snowball nature when ahead, and keeps the heal valid/noticeable when behind.



Many of you are saying you have trouble with last hits - here are my standard AP caster runes. like the OP mentions, havoc is useless, put the points into Butcher & Brut Force which effectively gives you +7 damage to last hit with. 3 AD is better than the 4 AP you could get from mental force.

What's the issue with snowballing? I never understood why people complain about people snowballing. It's not hard to avoid snowballing someone, you just don't die to them a ton of times and it's fine.


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Fubby3

Senior Member

08-26-2013

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Persona00

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Junior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
1. I always feel like there's not enough items to build. As a mage Swain plays more like a tanky mage bruiser and because a lot of his damage is done over time he needs to have a few defensive items (RoA, Rylias, Zhonyas) to live long enough to contribute a lot to the fight. His ult isn't really enough by itself to keep him alive especially if he gets ignited or such. Compared to other burst champions who as long as they get off their combo (even if they die) but manage to kill a vital target do the job.

But then if he's going to be living longer to do more damage he then needs more mana/mana regen to sustain his super hungry mana ult. On top of that he needs to itemize for a lot of flat AP (or CDR) since his damage is DoT based then even if he manages to get close to the ADC (Which he needs a mobility item like maybe boots of swiftness or Twin Shadows to do since his mobility isn't too great), it doesn't matter if he can't kill them due to their lifesteal negating his DoT's.

TL;DR - Swain feels messy to itemize for since he needs almost like a little bit of everything just to be useful.

2. A few QoL changes I can think of off the top of my head for Swain:
  • Swain has no little escape mechanics (unless you count his snare/slow and then walk away). It'd be nice if his [W]-Nevermove made a sounds when it hit someone in the brush so that you wouldn't have to go facecheck it.
  • Not sure if this counts as a QoL change but it'd be nice if the radius of his [W]-Nevermove was increased a bit by like 5-10 units. Really doesn't feel satisfying when it looks like you've nicked the foot of your enemy but that snare doesn't go off. Kind of like how Elise's Rappel had a little bit of leeway pre-nerf.

3. Swain fantasy for me feels like it should be a mix between something terrifying and grand where if I catch someone in a snare and do my full combo with birdmode on people should be like "OHHHH **** I SHOULDN'T FIGHT HIM RIGHT NOW BECAUSE HE'S HELLA HARD TO KILL IN THIS STATE!". Right now its more like either:
1) Ignite and burst him down first!
2) Use my own CC to stop him from getting closer to me since he has low mobility
3) Trade with him then chug a few health pots and wait until he goes OOM.

3a. End game Swain the greatest Swain moment is to be in the middle of a giant teamfight laughing off all the damage they do and after its all over walk out and just be at full HP still. A terrifying Giant Demon Bird is in the middle of the enemy team using his ravens to dish out massive DPS and going for your squishies.


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Marisa

Senior Member

08-26-2013

For me, the fantasy of Swain is kind of the same as the fantasy of Fiddle; somehow getting into the middle of the enemy team and dealing damage/CC while vamping to slow or avoid outright death.

There aren't a lot of suggestions I can state here that aren't clearly buffs; I feel like one of the weirdest things about Swain is that his ulti makes him appear to be some kind of AOE monster when he's actually much more dangerous as a focuser due to the nature of his single-target damage amp DOT and the generally high base power of his single-target spells vs. his AOE abilities. The AOE abilities are important as a part of his damage, sure, but the cornerstone of the kit definitely feels much more like the E than it does the ultimate.

The one change I'd really like is to buff his passive mana return to give back more on Champion kill and work for assists; this would make him feel much more like he is draining the people he kills in teamfights and might give more leeway to builds that don't emphasize mana. The mana sustain right now is just that; meant as a gradual restoration. I'd suggest at least tripling this value for champion kill or assist, which would give 81 mana back at max level; not a whole lot considering that it's Swain. The point of this would be to reward Swain for skirting his mana levels to give him an extra second of ultimate duration or one more spell before running completely OOM.


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LGThanatos

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Maybe change his circle to start tiny faster and spread from the center to max range like a Cassiopeia circle. So say the delay is 2 seconds right now, instead it would be 20% of the area after 1 second and spread out to 100% of the area over the next second. Anything that touches the active area would get rooted. This would let it be landed easier, and put in front of enemies fleeing easier, but still give chance to walk away from/around its center.

Alternatively, increase its cast range? I find it useless for fleeing enemies with boots and easily walked around if they're coming towards me.