I got Plat II playing almost exclusively Swain

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Tolang

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
As a swain player myself, I'd like to give my input.

1. I feel like his itemization is pretty solid ATM, RoA gives you just about everything you need. Then chalice -> Athenes for the MR/Mana regen, then Zhonya's for Armor and some more AP. If you need more hp, Rylias is always good, more MR? Abyssal. Deathcap for fun if your winning, or Torment if you want to burn people and you got 2 ways to trigger the double damage. Sorc shoes + Torment +runes and mastieries is about all pen your gonna need. I don't feel that Swain really needs much CDR, Athene's + mastieries is good enough, and if you can get blue buff that helps.

2. I really don't feel like his stats need much to get him to be popular. I feel like mobility is his biggest weakness (aside from ignite, well maybe even more than ignite), his moderately low base MS coupled with no mobility in his kit makes getting into and out of fights tough for the cripple bird-man.

3. My "I am epic" moments with swain is when I land a W/E/Q combo on their carry and then just walk around their team with my ult going and tanking most of the dmg they deal.

3a. I think the biggest hindrance to swain's "I am epic" moments is his lack of mobility and ignite. His lack of mobility make getting to his opponents tricky and ignite just shut his tanking ability down. Another thing that kinda hurts him is he almost always solely relies on landing his W to make his combo work, granted there are some cases where just E/Q/R/Ignite works fine with out the snare.

Overall, I feel Swain is really good in some cases right now, he just needs a little something, I'm not exactly sure what that is, to make him well off in most cases.


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rice329

Senior Member

08-25-2013

sry if this has been asked before (13 pages) but why level q over w?
why no tear, or how do you manage mana without tear?


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Ryzoo

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08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demagoguery View Post
I love the DoT aspect of him, but there are two things I hate about Swain:

1.) His inability to farm creeps being an AA dependent champion, with an AA speed the same as Karthus, who has an attack rate the speed of molasses. He does have like +6 initial damage on Karthus, but it's still painful, and Karthus just kind of farms with his Q as the AA is painfully slow.

2.) The passive just isn't good. At level 2 Karthus picks up his E and gets 20 mana a kill as long as the Aura isn't on. That's the same mana that Swain gets a kill at level 11 from his passive. Not only that but the passive because almost non-existent when you get to late game and you're in a team fight, like the best that can happen is you get +25 mana for killing a champion? That's just terrible.

The concept is cool, but it's nowhere near the level of Trundle's passive, or Karthus's E passive. Maybe keep the mana regen on kill, but give it a little something because it's just not strong at all. Especially when you have such a hard time farming due to your reliance on AA and short range.

Edit:

3.) This isn't so much an issue because Swain is more of a lane bully than the normal mid but if you look at the most common mids people prefer the boil down into the following:

High roaming/mobility champions: Ahri, Kass, TF, Zed, and even Karthus all have some ability to impact other lanes from mid by either having super mobility or ults that let them simply impact other lanes from being around mid.

High utility champs:This is mostly Orianna, she has a really high skill cap but once going she has so much utility with a shield, speed/slow, and an ult that just destroys team fights. Sure, Swain can pile drive fights and can have the ability to snare a group of people, but he doesn't have the utility of Kayler or Orianna.

Edit 2:

What if instead of just regenerating mana off of his passive, he gains it for killing a unit? As in his passive is like that of Nasus's Q, Veiger's Q, or Sion's E? That way it still has a similar function to its original form, by acting as a sort of mana regen method, but it lets him build up some more mana without having to invest so much gold into it.

You'd have to reduce the amount he gains, but it would really make his life better, and allow him to have a higher mana pool over time.
I love playing Swain and I think these points are spot on + the changes would be fantastic.


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Dunking

Junior Member

08-25-2013

I wouldn't mind another tweak to his auto attack animation, but I'm saying that as a person who rarely plays Swain and therefore isn't used to it.


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Demagoguery

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by rice329 View Post
sry if this has been asked before (13 pages) but why level q over w?
why no tear, or how do you manage mana without tear?
From what I know from my limited play of Swain:

The Q has better base damage and right now Swain is already somewhat reliant on landing his W, so leveling it instead of Q makes you far too reliant on actually landing it. By leveling Q you have more sustained damage as the cooldown is lower at 8 seconds each level as opposed to the W cooldown at max level being 10 seconds. It also lets you kite pretty well, on top of the slow being increased per level and the AP scaling being higher as long as you get the full duration of it going. So as a whole the Q is better in terms of damage, while the W is more of a utility spell.

As for tear, the few times I've built it on Swain it hasn't been very good. Swain isn't like Ryze, Karthus, or Singed, he simply doesn't have the ability spam that the others do. Sure you want to be using your Torment as often as possible to harass, but none of your abilities are good for farming, and they all 8 second cooldowns at the very least, with 10 seconds on your E and W at their best. You can't really stay in your Ult either as the mana cost increases astronomically overtime, unlike the Singed Q which just keeps going at a flat rate that's lower anyway. In short, it just takes forever to get the tear fully charged on him.


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Tolang

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by rice329 View Post
sry if this has been asked before (13 pages) but why level q over w?
why no tear, or how do you manage mana without tear?
W is a one point wonder, does the full snare at 1 point and his Q's damage goes up more aswell as the slow. Swain doesn't really stack a tear that well and all a Archangel's gives you is offensive stats, which is prefect if you are just dominating, but you wont know that about the time you buy a tear and you also NEED to rush a RoA on Swain. chalice -> Athene is a good mana regen item for swain that give a mix of defense and offense if you REALLY need the regen. Also I almost never have mana trouble with Swain. I never use my skills on anything other than harassing in lane, and only if I land my W or i can net a kill. Also you don't want to use your ult unless you are going all in or you really need to stay in lane but you are low on hp, and for the latter, don't use it for more than a couple seconds at a time then either.


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Colinorr

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

@Scarizard

1a. He needs AP. His full combo ratio is pretty high. 3.2 (maximum 3.84 with damage amp) to a single target, assuming 4 seconds of damage-amplified ult. If your AP mid doesn't have damage, their utility had better be monstrous. Swain's utility is average.

1b. He needs mana. Being a combo mage with a 10 second cooldown on his main damage tool means Swain gets one, maybe two, spell rotations in a fight. The rest of his damage is essentially mana converted into aoe damage.

1c. Now that he has damage (AP, and technically mana) he needs durability (Zhonyas). His spell ranges are standard point and click ranges, and he has to be moderately durable to utilize his ultimate. Usually I just buy Zhonya's and try to use it optimally. Swain cant usually afford to spend too much on tank stats, when he already needs to buy a mana bar. HP, resists, and zhonyas go here.

He makes great use of all the stats you mentioned. Mpen is damage. CDR is damage (more combos!). Mana regen is a luxury that is nice to have, but less useful than maximum mana for Swain, except in Aram.

2. If his QWE (or just QE) were all the same cooldown, it would feel much better. Right now you combo, then get your laser bird cd up, but can't use it optimally for another two seconds when E is back. So his combo potential damage is high, but always lower unless you wait.

3. Swain's fantasy/epic moment is when he's fighting near the front lines, taking hits and leeching it back. This fantasy usually ends with a cc chain, ignite, and focus fire before you can Zhonya. If you DO get your Zhonya off, the fantasy continues, and you march your team to victory, since the enemy spent so much effort without killing you. Your mana for their life, in more ways then one.

Then the enemy Janna ults.

3a. You are always ignited in team fights, so you are always less durable than you expect. Only way around this is to adjust the grievous wounds debuff on ignite. Items are fine, but ignite is free, and always present.


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cwcriner

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Me and Swain have a love hate relationship. I love dots, I love wading like a bird that just doesn't care. The problem is; the dots aren't powerful, unless your massively ahead you don't notice the damage build up even while staking the dots. Neither can I just wade in a bird, I'll never have enough defenses or vamp to support what my ult wants me to do. Then there is how the hell are you supposed to build Swain? The items he'd love most are Liandries and Will/wraith, which for some unfathomable reason, are special cased so they are TERRIBLE on him. he can't bulk up, because his bases aren't strong enough to not build AP, but the AP options don't give anywhere near the defenses he needs. All in all, Swain is another victim of the great bruiser massacre. In terms of QoL make Decrypify (or his ult) do what it was supposed to do since the beginning, Deal more damage the less health the target does, as it builds the dots to a pay-off; Something Swain definitely lacks.


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Aeonx651

Junior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
1) Swain needs too many stats. He SHOULD be building tanky (liandrys/rylais sort of build) and dorans ring because he is a lane bully. The problem is he also needs mana items to sustain him during a teamfight. Health and resistances are most important to swain because of short range and need to get in the middle of a teamfight.

2)Add a cap to the increase in mana cost on his ultimate. The mana cost on his ultimate gets unnecessarily out of hand in teamfights.

3) Swains epic moment are similar to olaf's or aatrox. Being able to sustain yourself in an unfavorable fight to come out ahead is what makes him feel good. Being an "off-tank" for your team.


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Fubby3

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

Health, mana AP. Also RoA is perfect and Zhonyas eleminates the needs for resists

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

I'd say make his E only apply bonus damage to he SPELLS, inculding ignite, NOT autoattack, but then increase his base AD so he is still doing the same damage to champions, just more to minions/. This will let him CS and push more easily as he is weak at that and therefor doesnt fit well into the mta

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

Walk into a 5v1, and win with your massive ult regen and damage.

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.

Bolded text is my answers