[Guide] Karthus Annihilates All! Magic Pen. FTW!

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DeanKeaton259

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Senior Member

12-18-2009

Hey guys, I just made a kick A$$ guide for Karthus. For all the newbs out there who say Karthus blows... this one's for you.

[Note] This is a complete, well thought out guide with pictures. Check it out: http://hubpages.com/_2vwejfq5t73dt/h...-Karthus-Guide Comments are welcome. You can comment here, there, or anywhere. Lol, I just rhymed...


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Pigsticker

Senior Member

12-19-2009

I don't think its a very good build personally. Too much spell pen for a default build. Not a single item that increases Karthas's health, and very little AP. Ditch the Void Staff unless they are stacking the hell out of MR. Without it, your Spell Pen looks like this:

Spell Pen Talent: 15% reduction

Sorc Boots: 20 pen
Haunted Guise: 20 pen
Tier 3 Spell Pen Marks/Quints: 15 pen
Wall of Pain: 35 pen

That will take someone with 100 spell resist down to 0. Thats enough honestly. It covers a character's base magic resist + magic resist runes + banshee's veil.

You're also taking too much cooldown reduction lol.

You'd get 9% from talents. 25% from Frozen Heart. 10% from Haunted Guise. 10% from Elixir of Brilliance. (not even going to count a fully stacked Meja's which is 15%) The cap is only 40%. And Karthas should be pretty much constantly getting Golem Buff anyway which is a free 25% cool down reduction.. not to mention the ridiculous mana regen.

And remember, reducing his cooldowns won't increase his damage much anyway. Lay Waste and Defile don't get much of anything out of this stat (one is capped at the global cooldown and the other is a toggle).. though its nice for Wall of Pain and Requiem.

I do like Frozen Hearth against teams stacked with physical carries though :P

I change parts of my build around depending on my opponents and teammates obviously.. so I can't just give a cookie cutter item build. I will say though that my build almost always has both a Rod of Ages and Rylie's Sceptor if it goes over 30 minutes.

Rylie's is very strong on Karthus. And for that matter, so is AP! Lay Waste has a .6 AP ratio which is ridiculous for a spell with a 1 second cooldown!! A lot of people look at Karthas's AP ratios and see small numbers so they think he doesn't scale well.. but those people are dumb lol.

If a spell with a 15 second cooldown has a .6 AP ratio, then if he spams that spell whenever its off cooldown, it will do 240% of your AP as damage over a minutes time in addition to the base damage of the spell. To make it easier, lets say Lay Waste has a 2 second cooldown and a .6 AP ratio on single targets. If you spam it 30 times during a minute, you will do 1800% of AP as damage in addition to the base damage of the spell.

Of course that scenario would never happen for Karthas, but my point is that just because an ability has a low AP ratio, doesn't mean it doesn't scale well with AP. You have to look at the cooldown of the spell as well.

Anywho, enough rambling. I haven't seen anyone even attempt an updated Karthas guide so I appreciate the effort.


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Mugsy

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12-19-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigsticker View Post
Wall of Pain: 35 pen
Wall of Pain is not magic penetration its magic resistance reduction, it comes into effect after penetration has been calculated and if penetration pushes the MR to 0, reduction unlike penetration is able to send it into negatives. -35 MR being +35% magic damage to the target i believe.


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DeanKeaton259

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Senior Member

12-19-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigsticker View Post
I don't think its a very good build personally. Too much spell pen for a default build. Not a single item that increases Karthas's health, and very little AP. Ditch the Void Staff unless they are stacking the hell out of MR. Without it, your Spell Pen looks like this:

Spell Pen Talent: 15% reduction

Sorc Boots: 20 pen
Haunted Guise: 20 pen
Tier 3 Spell Pen Marks/Quints: 15 pen
Wall of Pain: 35 pen

That will take someone with 100 spell resist down to 0. Thats enough honestly. It covers a character's base magic resist + magic resist runes + banshee's veil.

You're also taking too much cooldown reduction lol.

You'd get 9% from talents. 25% from Frozen Heart. 10% from Haunted Guise. 10% from Elixir of Brilliance. (not even going to count a fully stacked Meja's which is 15%) The cap is only 40%. And Karthas should be pretty much constantly getting Golem Buff anyway which is a free 25% cool down reduction.. not to mention the ridiculous mana regen.

And remember, reducing his cooldowns won't increase his damage much anyway. Lay Waste and Defile don't get much of anything out of this stat (one is capped at the global cooldown and the other is a toggle).. though its nice for Wall of Pain and Requiem.

I do like Frozen Hearth against teams stacked with physical carries though :P

I change parts of my build around depending on my opponents and teammates obviously.. so I can't just give a cookie cutter item build. I will say though that my build almost always has both a Rod of Ages and Rylie's Sceptor if it goes over 30 minutes.

Rylie's is very strong on Karthus. And for that matter, so is AP! Lay Waste has a .6 AP ratio which is ridiculous for a spell with a 1 second cooldown!! A lot of people look at Karthas's AP ratios and see small numbers so they think he doesn't scale well.. but those people are dumb lol.

If a spell with a 15 second cooldown has a .6 AP ratio, then if he spams that spell whenever its off cooldown, it will do 240% of your AP as damage over a minutes time in addition to the base damage of the spell. To make it easier, lets say Lay Waste has a 2 second cooldown and a .6 AP ratio on single targets. If you spam it 30 times during a minute, you will do 1800% of AP as damage in addition to the base damage of the spell.

Of course that scenario would never happen for Karthas, but my point is that just because an ability has a low AP ratio, doesn't mean it doesn't scale well with AP. You have to look at the cooldown of the spell as well.

Anywho, enough rambling. I haven't seen anyone even attempt an updated Karthas guide so I appreciate the effort.
I get only 3% cd reduction from masteries. I forgot to include a section on this. As for the magic pen, with the void staff, it's 15% + 40% = 55% penetration off the bat + 20 +20 + 18.5 (runes) = a total of -55% followed by -58.5. I do go ap as well ocassionally, but usually only near the end after I get the magic pen stuff. Sorc shoes, frozen heart, guise are pretty much always taken. The other 3 slots I get based on how the game is going. Honestly though, I never need much hp because I don't die much because I'm always behind my teammates. I do get warmogs ocassionally though. I don't like rod of ages because I don't like waiting for stats to kick in, but it is a solid item which could probably be taken instead of warmogs. I'll have to play around with that.

Sometimes I do forgo the void staff. At times I've gone sorc shoes, frozen heart, guise, warmogs, soulstealer. Rylai's is ok if I'm going for hp, I still prefer warmogs though. As for the elixir of brilliance, I get it mostly for the +65 ap bonus. The cd is good early because I'd have 10% guise, 10% elixir, 20% glacial shroud. That's 40%. I do have the 3% from masteries, so it's actually 43%, but 3% over isn't really a big deal. The masteries help when I don't have the elixir on anyways.

Once I get frozen heart I have 10% +25%+3% = 38%, which is good enough. At that point I'll be going for a full inventory and no more elixirs. I don't know if you understand that the point of the high magic pen. is to make their resistances go below 0. If they don't get any mr gear (most people don't) my spells do ridiculous damage. I also find that magic pen is much easier and cheaper to itemize for than ap is. It's also not subject to the ap ratios which give diminished returns on ap investment.

As for the efficacy of the build, it works pretty much every time. To sum up, I go ap last and I only go hp if I'm getting pounded hard, but like I said, I like to play from a distance and use my teammates for cover. Basically if they try to kill me they're going to get slowed, nuked, and ganked by the pack of allies which are around me pretty much all the time. I mean, if I'm consistently getting more kills and a low number of deaths do I really need to itemize for hp? Your point about rod of ages was good though. I'll have to try that out.


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DeanKeaton259

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Senior Member

12-19-2009

[Edit] I've tweaked the guide to include a further discussion of Itemization and Masteries. The point that PigSticker made about rod of ages was a good one. I feel that I overlooked a good item, so kudos to him for pointing that out to me.


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xzymethx

Senior Member

12-19-2009

So what exact buildorder do you prefer?

I go tear (saphire first), because when u spam lay waste, you get a lot of mana afterwards

staff is probably the best item for him, because he gets also 2% of his max mana converted into ap
afterwards boots, and then rod of rage, good magic restistance and +ap, also -20 mr against near enemies
then voidstaff for more mana + ap + magic pene, and end item is ring


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Pigsticker

Senior Member

12-19-2009

Quote:
Wall of Pain is not magic penetration its magic resistance reduction, it comes into effect after penetration has been calculated and if penetration pushes the MR to 0, reduction unlike penetration is able to send it into negatives. -35 MR being +35% magic damage to the target i believe.
Quote:
Once I get frozen heart I have 10% +25%+3% = 38%, which is good enough. At that point I'll be going for a full inventory and no more elixirs. I don't know if you understand that the point of the high magic pen. is to make their resistances go below 0. If they don't get any mr gear (most people don't) my spells do ridiculous damage. I also find that magic pen is much easier and cheaper to itemize for than ap is. It's also not subject to the ap ratios which give diminished returns on ap investment.
This has been posted in quite a few threads. Feel free to do a search if you'd like confirmation.

Quote:
Three things affect the targets magic resistance.

In this order:

1.) Effects which put a reduction debuff on the champion (Karthas's Wall of Pain, Abyssal Scepter, Amumu's passive, Soraka's Starfall debuff). This is the only thing that can make them go negative.

2.) Percentage based magic penetration, like the 15% offensive mastery and the 40% from Void Staff (these are addative togeather: Combined they are 55% magic penetration)

3.) Static value magic penetration, like the 20 you get from Sorcerer's Boots or Haunting Guise.
The MR reduction effect is calculated first, and magic pen / percentages can not send someone into negatives. So once you reduce a champions MR to 0, magic pen has no additional benefit. So if someone has 100 MR: Wall of Pain will reduce it to 65. The 15% from talents will reduce it to 55. And then your runes (15) + boots (20) + guise (20) will reduce that to 0.

I hope that clears up any confusion you had. I'm also fairly certain cooldown reduction is calculated by multiplying and not adding.


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DeanKeaton259

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Senior Member

12-19-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigsticker View Post
This has been posted in quite a few threads. Feel free to do a search if you'd like confirmation.

The MR reduction effect is calculated first, and magic pen / percentages can not send someone into negatives. So once you reduce a champions MR to 0, magic pen has no additional benefit. So if someone has 100 MR: Wall of Pain will reduce it to 65. The 15% from talents will reduce it to 55. And then your runes (15) + boots (20) + guise (20) will reduce that to 0.

I hope that clears up any confusion you had. I'm also fairly certain cooldown reduction is calculated by multiplying and not adding.
CD reduction is additive. You add all the sources. I just double checked this.


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Pigsticker

Senior Member

12-19-2009

I was reading over the thread again and it occurred to me that it was possible our actual play styles are completely different. You said:

Quote:
I like to play from a distance and use my teammates for cover.
That's sort of the opposite of how I play him. I follow the tanks into the middle of the fray and use Wall of Pain + Ghost/Exhaust to kite and kill using a 50/50 combination of Defile and Lay Waste. Defile is ridiculous damage in group fights.. Its like a baby Fiddle Ult except you can use it all the time. One of the reason's that people say Karthas is so hard to play well is because its so difficult to use Defile to maximum effect without making it easy to focus fire you or running out of mana.

Here's a guide made by Reginald: (used to play with Roku, Dan Dihn, Etc)

http://www.solomid.net/forums/index....us-by-reginald

Its a little outdated I think but still a very solid guide. Skip down and read the Tips and Defile part. I think he specifically mentions that he always tries to be the second champion into the fray. Ya gotta play aggressive with Karthas. That's just how you maximize his effectiveness. He's not a stand in the back type of hero.


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Pigsticker

Senior Member

12-19-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanKeaton259 View Post
CD reduction is additive. You add all the sources. I just double checked this.
Ya your right lol. I was thinking of a different game.


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