[Guide] Ashe: The Team Queen

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Fahgettaboudit

Senior Member

12-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
If you don't feel like posting the reasoning behind skipping Phantom Dancer, please direct me to a post that explains it. I would love to hear the reasoning.

However, I feel like the extra crit chance and speed of PD is much more cost effective than Last Whisper. Besides, after running the mathcrafting for the two options after infinity edge, I've found that PD is much more consistent against the average armor ratings in the game.

Besides, if you're running Armor Pen runes, you're getting about 35 Armor Pen from runes and masteries...this reduces the effectiveness of Last Whisper, at least according to the math. I have found that it would require about 2 or 3 top tier armor items on the average champ before Last Whisper is more effective (not necessarily cost effective) than Phantom Dancer.



Well, I agree completely with this part! Exhaust makes absolutely no sense on her, as its range exposes her too much in order for her to use it.

As I mentioned in my guide, buying Doran's while building IE is the way to go!

As I said, please enlighten me as to why PD is less effective than LW...I'd love to hear it.
I don't have a post explaining it, and I haven't done the mathcraft. All I can do is theorycraft with my head in the clouds, so to speak. That is to say, having watched how top5 elo players play ashe and against ashe, and what they say and what questions they answer. Now I won't pretend that elo > facts, but their arguments at least seem persuasive.

I had a big list of things to consider, but you've probably thought about a lot of them already.

But - defensive masteries, taric aura, sona aura, aegis of the legion aura, tanky meta game, higher elo = more armor items on carries/supports

The main issue is that LW is 1300g cheaper, which is half way to a banshees veil, or could be used on a double elixir - giving you 28dmg, 480hp, 35% AS and 15Crit.

And 90% of the games I've watched streamed by roku/hotshot/jiji/eskimo/reginald/reinhold/gradjudge are decided by the teamfight that takes place just about after you get last whisper. Thats where one fight lost = one baron lost = 2 turrets and an inhib lost.

I guess why I feel you like PD more is that you haven't looked at the item choice in terms of the wider game.

But maybe I'm wrong, and just blindly following good players opinions. I'm not really experienced enough to say myself.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
That's just it, Last Whisper + The Brutalizer cost almost exactly the same amount of gold as Phantom Dancer, so they fill the same space in your build. The only advantage Phantom Dancer has is the higher crit chance. Last whisper + The Brutalizer + Health Quints has FLAT armor pen in addition to Last Whisper's 40% than Phantom Dancer + Armor Pen Quints. And yes, I'd use Armor Pen Marks with the Last Whisper build as well. That makes you able to pierce armor of Squishies, Tanky DPS, and Pure Tanks alike.
As I already mentioned, I'll be posting my calculator soon. It'll compare both options...yours and mine...

Quote:
Edit:
Out of curiosity, who exactly do you consider to be a "median" opponent?
I used the lowest and the highest champ's armor values...that gave me the range, so the median is the average between the two...I forget now who they were.

I'll post and explain with comments in the cells when I get the chance.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahgettaboudit View Post
I don't have a post explaining it, and I haven't done the mathcraft. All I can do is theorycraft with my head in the clouds, so to speak. That is to say, having watched how top5 elo players play ashe and against ashe, and what they say and what questions they answer. Now I won't pretend that elo > facts, but their arguments at least seem persuasive.

I had a big list of things to consider, but you've probably thought about a lot of them already.

But - defensive masteries, taric aura, sona aura, aegis of the legion aura, tanky meta game, higher elo = more armor items on carries/supports

The main issue is that LW is 1300g cheaper, which is half way to a banshees veil, or could be used on a double elixir - giving you 28dmg, 480hp, 35% AS and 15Crit.

And 90% of the games I've watched streamed by roku/hotshot/jiji/eskimo/reginald/reinhold/gradjudge are decided by the teamfight that takes place just about after you get last whisper. Thats where one fight lost = one baron lost = 2 turrets and an inhib lost.

I guess why I feel you like PD more is that you haven't looked at the item choice in terms of the wider game.

But maybe I'm wrong, and just blindly following good players opinions. I'm not really experienced enough to say myself.

Well, I appreciate your honesty!

I do see your point...however, If a champ is going to get Randuin's Omen or Thornmail, Ashe should probably find a different target...And if the opponents are building armor, then those are 2 excellent choices, since they practically negate most physical DPS champs. If that's the case, then Ashe should focus on more average damage to carries/mages, in which case Phantom Dancer will be better, since their armor values are so low, and the armor pen runes already penetrate enough against them.


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Fahgettaboudit

Senior Member

12-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Well, I appreciate your honesty!

I do see your point...however, If a champ is going to get Randuin's Omen or Thornmail, Ashe should probably find a different target...And if the opponents are building armor, then those are 2 excellent choices, since they practically negate most physical DPS champs. If that's the case, then Ashe should focus on more average damage to carries/mages, in which case Phantom Dancer will be better, since their armor values are so low, and the armor pen runes already penetrate enough against them.
(what I say - the build, that is, was quoted from a post made by locodoco in october though - google "high elo ashe + fortunately")


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Narnak

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Senior Member

12-04-2010

Phantom Dancer

It's not that Phantom Dancer is a bad item. In the right situation, that item can stomp like no other. But the right situation is basically only when you are already rolling and the win is practically guaranteed. This is due to the fact that a lot attack speed just isn't good on Ashe. She can only attack so fast while kiting with frost arrows. How often does Ashe stand in one place and tear up a team? Only when you are rolling and feel absolutely no danger of dying in a fight. Either that or you are in an arranged team with some incredible tanks/support to cover your ass. Even then, Ashe is MEANT to be played as a mobile dps because of her squish. She should ALWAYS ALWAYS be at max range. There is absolutely no reason for her to be anywhere near the other team. She has no short range attacks whatsoever. She also is one of the weakest champions defensively (lack of hard escape moves and very low base health/mitigation). If their melee get in range to pounce you, it's over unless your team has some hard CC off cooldown and are very quick on the draw.

The dodge on Phantom Dancer is worthless because Ashe never wants to be in range to get hit and if she gets ambushed it's over anyway unless you got flash/ult so you can create space between them and you. Move speed is certainly nice, and crit is good on any physical dps champ (even Ashe, though she gets slightly less benefit due to getting no benefit to crit from items on her first attack because of her passive). But overall, the stats on Phantom Dancer just aren't optimal for Ashe is basically what it amounts to. There are items that work much better with Ashe IMO.

Heal

I feel Heal is, as mentioned, bad because it scales poorly and Flash can save you from a gank better in lane than Heal will (and will of course be better for saving your life late) Heal is better for countering harass, but Ashe shouldn't take much harass to begin with...her harass (volley) is super long range and she has the option of starting Doran's Shield for enough regen to counter any mild harass (it is a health pot worth of healing every 2 minutes plus your base regen). It also boosts Ashe's starting armor to a bit over 30 which is very welcome.

My Take on Ashe

In my opinion, Ashe should be built around Volley. I feel volley does most of my damage when I play Ashe, because it scales with AD and armor penetration (which she is already stacking) and it hits (potentially) the entire other team and not just one person. Outside of AD and armor penetration, all you need to rock mega volley damage is some cooldown reduction. This also benefits your ult...maxed CDR means a 45 second ult and that is super sweet to rack up assists all over the map and hawkshot->ult can create some great flanking opportunities for your team in a team fight.

So how do I maximize AD, armor penetration and CDR? My favorite build is:

Runes: Armor Pen marks, scaling Mana Regen seals, flat CDR glyphs, and flat Health quints.

Masteries: 11/0/19, taking crit, CDR, armor pen in offense and XP, meditation, run speed, CDR and improved flash/ghost in utility. I don't like 21 in offense on Ashe because it only boosts BASE damage, which isn't anything special on Ashe. Her double dip on AD scaling (volley and auto) is what makes her powerful.

Items:

Steps 1 through 3, mix in Red Elixirs as appropriate (balance between short term power/defense and long term build speed. Remember it can be used as a heal as well for baiting)

Step 1. Doran's Shield + Health Potion
Step 2. Boots1 + Brutalizer
Step 3. Boots2 (Mecury Treads usually) + Infinite Edge

That is your core right there. From here mix in Red and Green Elixirs as appropriate (green become better when you get a bit of AD..you could start popping greens after BF sword as well)

If the game drags:

Dying a lot/getting focused? -> Banshee's (magic/CC), Guardian Angel (balanced), Thornmail (physical). These are just my usual picks...for defense you always need to be reactive to the other team.

All around more offense: Youmuu's Ghostblade + 2nd Brutalizer is my favorite pick here. I know everyone says, "but the active on ghostblade doesn't get extended by ranged DPS! FAIL!" That is true, but otherwise the item is just so perfect for Ashe! Gives her max CDR with purely offensive items, and 61 armor penetration. Most champions natural armor at 18 is around 70 or so. This is flat torture for squishies. More AD is always nice, as is more crit. And the active is actually super useful for Ashe...it acts as a soft escape if her Flash/Ghost are down (in combination with a volley to slow them), is great for tower busting, or for chasing runners (Frost Arrows + Youmuu's active mean that they pretty much have no chance unless they have a flash type move up). It also gives her a boost of attack speed for team fights where she might get a few seconds to focus someone down.

Armor stackers, oh my: Get Last Whisper. Yes, even with stacking armor penetration. The flat armor penetration takes care of most of their natural armor, but 1 single armor item can give them another 90-100 armor and most tanks roll with a lot more than that. That Last Whisper can still shave off another 50+ armor easy for those stacking. It won't however help much against squishies, but you aren't taking it for them

But I'm just flat rolling: Get a Bloodthirster's already then for the lulz if you want. But it's probably already GG

Good late-game items: Stark's Fervor (if someone on your team doesn't already have it), or Guardian Angel.

Conclusion: My take is just my opinion and build that fits my playstyle with Ashe. But I try to focus on the numbers in terms of theorycrafting and not just do what "feels right" to me (though that is what brought me to the build initially)


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narnak View Post
Phantom Dancer

It's not that Phantom Dancer is a bad item. In the right situation, that item can stomp like no other. But the right situation is basically only when you are already rolling and the win is practically guaranteed. This is due to the fact that a lot attack speed just isn't good on Ashe. She can only attack so fast while kiting with frost arrows. How often does Ashe stand in one place and tear up a team? Only when you are rolling and feel absolutely no danger of dying in a fight. Either that or you are in an arranged team with some incredible tanks/support to cover your ass. Even then, Ashe is MEANT to be played as a mobile dps because of her squish. She should ALWAYS ALWAYS be at max range. There is absolutely no reason for her to be anywhere near the other team. She has no short range attacks whatsoever. She also is one of the weakest champions defensively (lack of hard escape moves and very low base health/mitigation). If their melee get in range to pounce you, it's over unless your team has some hard CC off cooldown and are very quick on the draw.

The dodge on Phantom Dancer is worthless because Ashe never wants to be in range to get hit and if she gets ambushed it's over anyway unless you got flash/ult so you can create space between them and you. Move speed is certainly nice, and crit is good on any physical dps champ (even Ashe, though she gets slightly less benefit due to getting no benefit to crit from items on her first attack because of her passive). But overall, the stats on Phantom Dancer just aren't optimal for Ashe is basically what it amounts to. There are items that work much better with Ashe IMO.

Heal

I feel Heal is, as mentioned, bad because it scales poorly and Flash can save you from a gank better in lane than Heal will (and will of course be better for saving your life late) Heal is better for countering harass, but Ashe shouldn't take much harass to begin with...her harass (volley) is super long range and she has the option of starting Doran's Shield for enough regen to counter any mild harass (it is a health pot worth of healing every 2 minutes plus your base regen). It also boosts Ashe's starting armor to a bit over 30 which is very welcome.

My Take on Ashe

In my opinion, Ashe should be built around Volley. I feel volley does most of my damage when I play Ashe, because it scales with AD and armor penetration (which she is already stacking) and it hits (potentially) the entire other team and not just one person. Outside of AD and armor penetration, all you need to rock mega volley damage is some cooldown reduction. This also benefits your ult...maxed CDR means a 45 second ult and that is super sweet to rack up assists all over the map and hawkshot->ult can create some great flanking opportunities for your team in a team fight.

So how do I maximize AD, armor penetration and CDR? My favorite build is:

Runes: Armor Pen marks, scaling Mana Regen seals, flat CDR glyphs, and flat Health quints.

Masteries: 11/0/19, taking crit, CDR, armor pen in offense and XP, meditation, run speed, CDR and improved flash/ghost in utility. I don't like 21 in offense on Ashe because it only boosts BASE damage, which isn't anything special on Ashe. Her double dip on AD scaling (volley and auto) is what makes her powerful.

Items:

Steps 1 through 3, mix in Red Elixirs as appropriate (balance between short term power/defense and long term build speed. Remember it can be used as a heal as well for baiting)

Step 1. Doran's Shield + Health Potion
Step 2. Boots1 + Brutalizer
Step 3. Boots2 (Mecury Treads usually) + Infinite Edge

That is your core right there. From here mix in Red and Green Elixirs as appropriate (green become better when you get a bit of AD..you could start popping greens after BF sword as well)

If the game drags:

Dying a lot/getting focused? -> Banshee's (magic/CC), Guardian Angel (balanced), Thornmail (physical). These are just my usual picks...for defense you always need to be reactive to the other team.

All around more offense: Youmuu's Ghostblade + 2nd Brutalizer is my favorite pick here. I know everyone says, "but the active on ghostblade doesn't get extended by ranged DPS! FAIL!" That is true, but otherwise the item is just so perfect for Ashe! Gives her max CDR with purely offensive items, and 61 armor penetration. Most champions natural armor at 18 is around 70 or so. This is flat torture for squishies. More AD is always nice, as is more crit. And the active is actually super useful for Ashe...it acts as a soft escape if her Flash/Ghost are down (in combination with a volley to slow them), is great for tower busting, or for chasing runners (Frost Arrows + Youmuu's active mean that they pretty much have no chance unless they have a flash type move up). It also gives her a boost of attack speed for team fights where she might get a few seconds to focus someone down.

Armor stackers, oh my: Get Last Whisper. Yes, even with stacking armor penetration. The flat armor penetration takes care of most of their natural armor, but 1 single armor item can give them another 90-100 armor and most tanks roll with a lot more than that. That Last Whisper can still shave off another 50+ armor easy for those stacking. It won't however help much against squishies, but you aren't taking it for them

But I'm just flat rolling: Get a Bloodthirster's already then for the lulz if you want. But it's probably already GG

Good late-game items: Stark's Fervor (if someone on your team doesn't already have it), or Guardian Angel.

Conclusion: My take is just my opinion and build that fits my playstyle with Ashe. But I try to focus on the numbers in terms of theorycrafting and not just do what "feels right" to me (though that is what brought me to the build initially)
Whew! Long read...

Nothing you said seemed too crazy...except for the concept of stacking armor penetration from ghostblade and brutalizer...you ARE aware that the UNIQUE traits of items don't stack, yes? Which really is a waste of money.

This really makes me question the validity of the rest of your information, even though it probably works well for you. I'll agree that elixirs are definitely great, but they are good in any build, regardless. I'll even go so far as to grant your point on Heal and Phantom Dancer... I'll add the build you mentioned to my calculator to find out which one is best between yours, mine, and the other guy's...


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Deftinw0lf

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Senior Member

12-04-2010

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=346777
Brut and Ghostblade do stack.

Now on to the phantom dancer. The point is that with that, for damage anyway, you are getting the following stats: +45% attack speed, and +30% crit strike.

With the Last Whisper + Brutalizer combo, which is 300g less than the phantom dancer, you get: 40% armpen, 15 armpen, 10% DAMAGE, 25 attack damage, 10% cooldown reduction, and 40% attack speed.

I don't believe that, even on a squishy carry, that the armpen given in the last whisper combo is enough to negate 100% armor, given that the last whisper armpen is a percentage, not a flat amount, making it good for both squshies beefier champs. Also, last whisper gives 40% attack speed, meaning that the phantom dancer only has a 30% crit(which is unreliable as it is a chance and not a guarentee) and 5% attack speed advantage over LW ALONE, then add in that the brutilizer gives 25 attack damage, last whisper gives 10% attack damage, AND you have all that free juicy armpen, it makes the brut+LW a better item combo.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deftinw0lf View Post
Wow...I stand corrected.

They really should include that in the FAQ...The way it's written makes it sound like ANY unique passives don't stack, instead of the passives from the SAME item.

Anyway, did I read in your link that ALL items with UNIQUE properties can stack, unless you have 2+ of the same item (except for boots)? That would be a new bit of info for me.

Quote:
Now on to the phantom dancer. The point is that with that, for damage anyway, you are getting the following stats: +45% attack speed, and +30% crit strike.

With the Last Whisper + Brutalizer combo, which is 300g less than the phantom dancer, you get: 40% armpen, 15 armpen, 10% DAMAGE, 25 attack damage, 10% cooldown reduction, and 40% attack speed.

I don't believe that, even on a squishy carry, that the armpen given in the last whisper combo is enough to negate 100% armor, given that the last whisper armpen is a percentage, not a flat amount, making it good for both squshies beefier champs. Also, last whisper gives 40% attack speed, meaning that the phantom dancer only has a 30% crit(which is unreliable as it is a chance and not a guarentee) and 5% attack speed advantage over LW ALONE, then add in that the brutilizer gives 25 attack damage, last whisper gives 10% attack damage, AND you have all that free juicy armpen, it makes the brut+LW a better item combo.
Seems to me like it would be better to go with Madred's instead...the components are useful as you build, and if they are building alot of HP instead of armor, your ghostblade+brutalizer is going to penetrate all the armor you need it to. What would be better is added damage based on their HP...enter Madred's.

Now that I know the brutalizer and ghostblade stack, I'll have to redo my calculations.

Thanks for the info!


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Subdue

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Senior Member

12-06-2010

Quote:
Seems to me like it would be better to go with Madred's instead...the components are useful as you build, and if they are building alot of HP instead of armor, your ghostblade+brutalizer is going to penetrate all the armor you need it to. What would be better is added damage based on their HP...enter Madred's.
No this is generally a bad idea. Unless you see multiple people stacking HP with no magic resist, you don't want to grab Madred's Bloodrazor on Ashe. Madred's is most useful for champs with fast attack speeds that can proc it very often. Ashe has painfully slow attack speed.


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Deftinw0lf

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Senior Member

12-06-2010

Yeah, as long as they aren't the same item, unique passives stack. And what the guy above me said. Though if it's a heavy tank team I go madred's.


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