Skarner, I miss your kind

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Stampede EU

Senior Member

07-29-2013

I see absolutely nothing but an even worser Skarner in your "proposed" changes. He was, and still is my favorite jungler. Even if he isn't exactly in the best of places right now, if you know how to play him, he gets his job done and gets it done well.

So now you plan to remove the consistency of his permaslow, remove the attack speed from his exoskeleton and glue it onto his crappy fracture that is also losing it's heal. For what? What is the tradeoff here for losing everything and splitting a good skill in half, therefore requiring two skills to do the same job? Some miniscule shield amount? A couple extra percent of slow that decays and isn't repeatable? You have to be kidding me.


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LePWNa

Senior Member

07-29-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

Being super fast and durable while also being a decent duelist. Versatile itemization paths. Dragging someone into your team makes you feel like MVP.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Bad early ganks, he really only has three spells since his E is so useless, and his ultimate is EXTREMELY hard to land on most carries nowadays due to all the mobility and disengage they're loaded with. See: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...991&highlight=

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

Having to build the most niche, shoehorned and useless-outside-of-its-one-purpose item in the game: QSS.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

Skarner's "job" is isolating a high priority target and putting them in a position where they can more easily be dealt with. In a sense, I feel like he has too much power in his ultimate and not enough in the rest of his kit to make up for it. With how popular assassins are in S3, he isn't really necessary. Assassins just get on your carry and kill them single-handedly. They don't even really need any assistance from the team. Some champions that probably do Skarner's job better than he does: Zac, Vi, Jarvan, Hecarim, Lee Sin, Nautilus.


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PuppyInMyHands

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Junior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
I rarely comment on GD, but Skarner's my favorite champion and was my most played throughout S2.

I think the most defining trait about Skarner is his Impale (R). I find it similar to how Nocturne is balanced - As long as his other abilities aren't too weak, players will always pick him for the ultimate alone. It's an extremely satisfying ability when pulled off, but as the game's evolved, its difficulty of execution has made Skarner a less-than-worthwhile pick.

There are two aspects of the game that make playing Skarner frustrating for me:

(1) Fracture (E) isn't a one-point-wonder skill. Similar sustained-DPS tanks like Volibear, Udyr, and Hecarim all have an ability that players are perfectly willing putting one point in (Volibear's Rolling Thunder Q; Udyr's Bear Stance E; Hecarim's Devastating Charge E). These abilities all become better with additional levels, but the player is still perfectly willing investing all points into other sustained DPS and/or jungle-clear-oriented AOE or sustain abilities in the initial levels. These abilities allow them to feel useful even pre-6, and there's potential to make early plays if combined with Flash or Ghost.

Skarner, on the other hand, feels like a slightly better Warwick in the pre-6 department. Flash/Ghost + E doesn't do anything. There's such a high mana cost that there's very little incentive to put any points into it in the early levels, and putting a single point into it feels like you're delaying points into your core Q and W abilities. He defaults to early invades & Jungler dueling since his early gank is pretty poor, but this becomes difficult to safely perform as players become more experienced. Overall, Fracture (E) isn't satisfying to use.

Oh, and additionally, the slight cast animation on it is VERY frustrating when chasing people down. It's similar to the frustrating animation delay that Volibear gets when activating Thunder Claws (R), but in my opinion, is much more significant since it isn't even an ultimate ability. Udyr's stances and Hecarim's QW don't stop them from moving when cast, so they feel great.

(2) He's TOO kiteable. This is actually a minor point, since his ultimate is so powerful, it's actually fine to be kiteable. The problem isn't that Skarner doesn't deserve to be kiteable, since that would make him insanely OP. The problem is that there exist champions who serve "similar" functions who aren't as kiteable.

Skarner's shield grants 15-23% MS, while Volibear potentially gains 45-65% MS when moving towards champions. Udyr similarly gains 15-35% MS but also gains up to 15 flat MS for changing stances AND it doesn't disappear when attacked unlike Skarner does upon losing his shield. Hecarim gains from 25 to 75% MS over a duration for just 1 point.

Skarner's viability is directly related to how easily he can catch people in Melee range, so while I don't think he deserves an MS buff like what Volibear and Hecarim have, I do think it needs to be improved to make it comparable to other similar champions. I'd hate to have to rely on Shurelias to be useful, since the item has been nerfed heavily compared to how it was in S2.

As for playing against Skarner, I think the most frustrating aspect would be a lack of counterplay options when caught in his Crystal Slash (Q) permaslow, especially as auto-attackers. Unfortunately, I currently have no ideas on how to tone this down without risking making Skarner feel like Warwick (somewhat useless outside of his Ult).

In terms of Skarner's role as an early tanky-DPS duelist reliant on MS buffs, I've mentioned Udyr, Volibear, and Hecarim above. These champions all have better pre-6 ganks and dueling potential in the Jungle (with the exception of Hecarim who makes up for it with incredible late-game scaling & a true gap closer).

In terms of Skarner's role transitioning into a a peel-CC-initiation tank as the game progresses, champions like Amumu, Nautilus, and J4, are either tankier and/or have better CC overall or initiation with AOE.

I think Skarner's place is definitely somewhere closer in line with Udyr, Volibear and Hecarim, so I'd place more emphasis on comparing those champs over others.


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Quiie

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Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey All,
I’m going to be doing some Skarner work and right here is one of the best places to start. There has been a great thread in the Champion Feedback forum (shoutout to Irish Red Cap) with a lot of good discussion on how people are feeling about Skarner’s current state.

So I’ve been doing some digging and unfortunately, poor Skarner is being picked 80% less this year than he was last year. Some of this might be from some nerfs he has received, but it may also be because newer champs are outclassing him in what he does best. Either way, I think we all agree that Skarner could benefit from a few improvements to make him more fun/viable for both Skarner players and their opponents. Keep in mind, the goal here is not "make Skarner OP." There will always have to be strengths and weaknesses to all champions.

Before we get to any of the potential changes, we need to figure out what Skarner’s strengths and weaknesses are right now. I have a few questions for you all, and you can answer these as a SKarner player or even as someone who only has experience playing against Skarner.

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

I have my own personal answers to these questions, but I may be only seeing one side of the coin. There are some Skarner players out there with wayyy more experience that I have, and I think there is a lot of valuable information that I may be missing. I have a feeling that once we get talking, we will come to some very useful conclusions. GOGOGO

-Scruff
Hello, I know I am a bit late to the discussion, but I only just saw the thread. I was a Skarner main in season 2, achieving gold and an 80% win rate over 30 games. I am now plat 1. I used to love skarner, although I now feel that he is rather useless.

Question 1: I enjoy rocketing around as a super fast scorpion. I enjoy the bat outta hell feeling I get running out of the river/bushes to gank someone at turbo speed. I also used to enjoy the huge game-changing plays that his former ult could make.

Question 2: The fact that his ult has no consistency and his ms boost is also inconsistent. Both Voli and Udyr (whom you mentioned) get their ms bonuses for their full duration, where can Skarner loses his to incidental aoe.

Question 3: I haven't personally played against Skarner often, but the main complaints I remember were that his permaslow left people feeling unable to do anything. Sorry I can't give much input here

Question 4: Almost every other jungle champion has a consistent gap closer/ms boost. Skarner is the only champion that has the potential to lose his steroid to one ability thrown at him, or even a large creep wave early game (if he tanks it).

I had several thoughts about how to fix these problems as I wrote this, keep in mind that they aren't fully thought through/fleshed out.

The ms boost problem has the most easy solution, to me. I see to possible courses. One is to make it like Udyr's bear stance by making it have a flat period of boost, then nothing until the cooldown is back up. The second, and more interesting to me being a speed demon, is to make his ms boost very strong at full shield strength and have the boost scale down as the shield percentage of original strength scales down. By this I mean if his shield has 100 hp at full heath and gives 20% bonus ms, then dealing 50 damage will lower his boost to 10%. I feel this would allow skarner to be very fast at full shield strength, but allow counterplay by allowing the enemy to fight just long enough to break the shield/slow him then escape.

The problem with his ult is its inconsistency, in that you never know when you will get a pull or when the enemy will just barely max range it/blink away. I understand that a guaranteed pull left no counterplay, however now it feels as though Skarner has no play at all. I would suggest that his guaranteed pull be allowed, but under certain circumstances that allow counterplay:

Make the mark applied by his e guarantee that a pull will land regardless of the range. Getting into pull range is already enough of a challenge for Skarner, landing a skillshot and then following up with a guaranteed pull would feel extremely satisfying as a Skarner player. There is counterplay in this iteration because the skillshot has to land for the pull to be guaranteed. If the Skarner misses or the enemy dodges, then the ult is as escapable as it is now. (Missile speed and range might need to be tuned for it to be balanced) This would also incentivise Skarner players to put at least a point into his e before level 13.

Finally, THANK YOU for looking to bring Skarner back. <3

"We await our time"


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PrivatePansyM

Junior Member

07-29-2013

I think Skarner is fine the way he is because no one knows how to face him so if i can do my job right I can carry very hard. Now he is weak to counter jungle and having no blue just like Amumu so nothing is wrong with Skarner plz don't change.


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Cariborne

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Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
1) I like how strong Skarner is with his dueling power, his base damage and his base tankiness. I find that how he is now he really catches people off guard when people try to invade him or fight him alone.

2) I really like his sticking power, if he gets to you unless you have an escape, kill him or blow a flash. He's there, and I really enjoy getting into someone like that. I do admit it's annoying when playing against him, but I feel its what makes Skarner who he is and he should retain this ability. His Ult is also really strong for an engage, but I feel it should have a bit longer range because its too easy to escape when he comes at you, and a QSS kind of shuts it down hard.

3) Against Skarner, he's annoying when he sticks to you. I typically play Ezreal and Ashe though so he's pretty easy to kite from, but if I play a Draven or an AP Mid, he's worst then glue.

4) I find most Junglers do what he does better, they have stronger ganks, better gap closure or even better ults. His Ult is good for ganking, but in a team fight its too easy to ruin that I don't find he'll get competitive play as it is now.


A cool change for him I think would be;

Make his Shield work with all his Abilities. When he has this Shield his Q will slow all enemies he Cleaves, his E will apply his Mark in a cone instead of a line. His movement speed will still increase while he has his Shield up, break the Shield and he loses those bonuses and movement speed. I also feel like it should scale off of Bonus Health.

His Q will still cleave enemies in front of him, but it wont slow unless he has his W up. If he has W he'll slow his enemies hit, but if he doesn't have his Shield up they wont be slowed. You don't want to be stuck with Skarner? Break his Shield. The damage will still scale off his AD, and this move should still be spammed.

His E will throw his mark on enemies. Enemies hit by Skarner when he has this mark will restore a bit of his health, if they're flat out killed by E he gets twice as much of his health back. (ie. Gains 10 Health on hit, enemy flat out killed will give him 20 etc.) The mark lasts for 3 seconds and doesn't benefit allies. If he has his Shield up, he'll launch this attack in a cone instead of a small line. The damage, and maybe the health regen should scale off his AP.

His R I feel needs the most work. He has to be too close and personal which is really rough in poke/disengage comps, or even people who just ward a lot. I feel the range should be increased, and when he ults he should actually jump towards the target and then drag them away. When he uses this he should also get a movement speed increase for the 2 seconds he carries someone away. This gives him a stronger engage without having to rely on his Flash. Like a Vi Ult, it can still be cancelled by a Sivir/Nocturne Shield, Banshee Veil, QSS or Morgana Black Shield. It should scale off both AD and AP I find as I find he already gets a lot of use out of Trinity Force, and these changes I feel make it much stronger on him.

Now his Passive, I really like how his Auto Attacks reduce his Cooldown. So it should stay the same, but as I took the Attack Speed from his W his passive should reduce his cooldowns while giving him scaling Attack Speed.

As a whole I feel Skarner works best as a Short Cooldown Tank who really singles people out in fights. I feel his Q and W should have small Mana Costs as they're likely to be spammed, and his E should be a bit more expensive as it can give him a lot of sustain potential. With his movement speed mostly being tied to his Shield, I feel it'll give him a lot more potential with his ganks as people wont be able to just slow him and walk away as he does nothing, now they'll actually have to acknowledge him as a threat and throw something at him to stop him from coming at him. With his abilities all scaling differently I find Trinity Force being much stronger on him. Giving him Health, AD, AP and Movement Speed.

Skarner is one of my favourite junglers, and I really wish he was more viable in competitive play. For the most part all he does now is laugh at people who don't know how to fight him, but with these changes I feel he could deal a lot of damage and be considered a threat in the right hands and not sit on an Ult while his Flash is on CD.


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Zero Aurora

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
It would have to be his sticking potential for me. With an effective slow, movement speed, and a grab on that ultimate, there is little chance for non-gap closing champions to get away from you.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
There are 2:
1. You are an entirely movement speed based initiation. With no long range slow as Nasus or Nunu have, you have very little chance of starting your slow/grab combo onto an enemy. Most common picks right now have a gap closer. So good luck running up to that... even with your (breakable) movement speed boost. He can't initiate hard like most other notable junglers and top-laners.
2. You have a heal... Sorta... I mean, it feels like it heals for maybe 2 health by 30 minutes in...

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
Right now? Nothing... most champions have gap closers, speed boosts, or slows of their own stop Skaner from getting close enough to do his thing. He can't make offensive plays and instead he will only really does his best if you go in on him and his team.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
I have a solid list:
Blitz/Thresh - These two both essentially have a cleanse-able Skarner ultimate that has a lot less counter play. They don't have to walk up to you to use it.
Shen: He has sustain, shields, and a strong initiation as well as gap closers... all which Skarner wishes to have
Malphite: He can single out a carry more effectively than Skarner can, even if Skarner's ultimate is strong... Malphite can just Unstopable Force, which is about 10,000% easier to use safely than Impale.


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Pailisu

Senior Member

07-29-2013

What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
I love how fast he is and difficult to duel. He doesn't have burst but normally by the time the enemys realize they cant kill him its too late to escape because he has them perma slowed and has his sheild to boost his Movespeed.
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
His E Is near useless it feels like and he is pretty easy to kite.
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
His Grab definitely but I don't see how you could do anything about that since his grab is what makes skarner skarner
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Nautilus does skarners job way better. He is almost as fast, He has the hook to catch enemys out. he has more CC, and his hook is longer ranged than skarners. Aside from that he is tankier and still does quite a bit of damage. Sejuani would also be another one just because she is tankier and has more CC. although she lacks a grab she makes up for it with her aoe ultimate.


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Arizona

Member

07-29-2013

What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner? - Flash Ulting into the teamfight and getting the squishies
What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner? - When your blue gets stolen because he is so mana reliant.
What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner? When you get kited around by a wither or a slow. but that's with any melee champion.
Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why? - No, That's what makes Skarner so fun to play. He is so unique and there is no one like him that can lock someone down and pull them to your team.


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Frank LeeSinatra

Senior Member

07-29-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner? THINGS THAT ARE FUN ABOUT PLAYING SKARNER IS HE IS ABLE TO STICK TO THE CHAMPS HE''S CHASING
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?hiS RANGES ARE TOO SHORT HE GETS KITED WAAYYYYYYY TOO EASY
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner? HE IS ABLE TO STICK TO A CHAMP IF THEY HAVE NO GET AWAY ABILITITES
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why? I DONT EXACTLY WHAT SKARNERS JOB IS OTHER THAN A TANK. BUT ANYONE CAN BE A TANK IF THEY BUILD THE ITEMS FOR IT. I WANT SOMETHING THAT ALLOWS SKARNER TO GET TO THE CHAMPS SUCH AS EZREAL AND TRISTANA BECAUSE AS OF RIGHT NOW HE GETS KITED BY ADC'S SUCH AS THEM WAAAAAAAAY TO EASY