Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Limbo Pete

Senior Member

11-28-2013

In retrospect, my initial post was something of a rambling diatribe. This time I'll more specifically address the questions Scruffy asked.

1: What is most fun about playing Skarner?
I enjoy how condusive his kit is (or was) to aggressive play. Barreling into a fight at full speed and hauling someone off is what Skarner is all about. Or, if you catch someone solo, chasing them all over the place. Sometimes they get away but it's still fun to feel like everyone is afraid of you. With the current changes up on pbe, I feel like there is much less for me to do. I have to stay in the jungle a lot longer because of the way its been re-done, and my enemies already understand that I am going to be a sporadic threat at best. Heck, the changes to the jungle alone make Skarner less fun to play. His scaled back chasing ability makes it all worse.

2: What is least fun/most frustrating to deal with playing as Skarner?
The most immediately frustrating thing about playing Skarner is how unreliable his ult is. It really sucks to hear his ult go off but to see that damn Ez casually strolling away. I strongly think that fixing his ult would greatly impact his gameplay flow and satisfaction.

The next most frustrating thing about playing him is issues with gap closing. As is, his kit is sub par to many other champs that have jumps and so forth. Giving him more move speed is not the real solution. What Skarner needs is something I like to call "the Udyr treatment"- his W should allow him to ignore unit collision. This would help SO MUCH to decrease frustration. I have been tangled up in minion waves more times than I can remember. In addition to this, a general strength increase to his shield would work wonders. Or perhaps the move speed increase could simply not stop when the very low shield gets burst.

The third most frustrating thing about playing him is itemization. Now, Skarner is a melee champ that must auto attack for his kit to function. As such, his Q and autos are where his damage come from. And yet his E and W scale off ap, which he really can't afford to buy. Part of why he feels underwhelming to some is because you are never getting damage from more than a single ability. As crazy as it sounds, maybe he should just scale off AD to streamline his lackluster and expensive build paths. His currrent pbe changes have exacerbated this, particularly changes to his E. Now he really has to invest in that ability as it is fundamental to his remaining cc ability- but it does no damage. Thats because Riot knows full well he is not a ranged caster and keep it accordingly weak- with nothing to balace out that weakness.

3: What is most frustrating about playing against Skarner?
I have played against exactly 2 Skarners in my time with Leagye, and neither did very well.

4: I'm posting from my phone and can't remember the fourth question. Ultimately, my experience with him on the pbe has been very negative thus far. His kit feels shallow and useless, and while working a bit better for jungle clear I find there is now no reason to leave it. If I cast my slow at range it has worn off long before I get to them, which also makes the Q change useless because I can't reach them. Before, my enemies had to make a choice whether or not run at sight or potentially have me stick to them. Now they just run as soon as my slow hits, knowing full well I can't get there if they have any kind of jump or dash. And when I DO get to them I can no longer stick! The final proof of this problem is that my overall damage numbers are considerably lower in pbe games than on live games; at least as far as damage to champs is concerned.


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GypsyReborn

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Senior Member

11-30-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Chasing people down and being able to consistently slow them so they can't get away unless they burn a flash or a jump. and even than iceborne gauntlet is they go to item to get the jumpers to stop jumping

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
being kited is easily the most frustrating aspect but thats a mechanic that isn't just aimed at skarner. i have to say getting his ult off or facing the inconsistency of his q range sometimes. his e is literally nothing in comparison as a skill. i never max that skill ever. i literally save it to last for the points and just max q w and r first. his e is too mana inefficient and doesn't even do enough damage to mitigate putting a single point into it early. w and q are just so much more better early. i think reworking the e is what the bigger problem is. he literally has 3 skills and i do entirely better with those 3 skills then i do when i put a point into e.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
idk i haven't played against one in ages.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
there are some yes. but skarner doesn't have to be played as just an initiator which most people mistakenly use him for. flash ult someone get a kill push win yay! not necessarily. you can just sit in a bush like an actual scorpion would let your food come to you and pick people off very quickly. you are a champion that has a suppress that brings champions to your team for a free kill. on a generally low (if you run AS quints and a wits end its up at max every ~45 seconds ) cooldown. now is this over powered? no. this is actually pretty balanced for what his kit is meant to do. which is chase people down. and i don't see many champions do that besides blitzcrank or udyr and udyr has the same kite problem as skarner with no suppression ultimate. my experience with playing skarner in normal games and ranked games is that nobody understand how you are supposed to play him. or even how to build him because he reacts positively to AS and AP but most of his damage comes from his q which is a consistent slow.

edit:I forgot to mention why he isn't in a great spot. Hes not in a great spot because his E is too mana inefficient like most people have said.

your're spending 50 mana for lvl 1 e in the jungle when your base mana at lvl 2 is 245. and for 80 damage and a maximum heal for 60 health. at lvl 2 your base health is 536 with no runes or masteries. that isn't worth even using because with runes and masteries the damage mitigation is so small that 60 health isn't all that useful. now take for example lvl 2 you grab w instead of e. now you have a movespeed and AS buff that makes you clear jungle a whole lot faster than e would and you get a shield that mitigates a whole lot more damage than e would.

the problem i believe isn't in the ultimate. the ultimate is fine. the utility is there for catching someone out of position and exploiting it, or sometimes initiating with a flash pull sometimes. its there for the utility and the utility is amazing because it definitely out does a ww ult or a malzahar ult in terms of utility. now does it out do a blitzcrank pull? HELL NO its a completely different champion the sad fact is his e is a skill that doesn't belong. maybe give him a passive ability like vaynes silver bolts where if he hits someone with his q a couple of times or his auto attack a couple of times a mark is put on the victim and his next q or auto attack will proc that mark inducing a slow that slowly drops over time.

the problem is that his e has no synergy with his kit and frankly is an unnecessary skill in both the jungle and lane.

EDIT 2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
as far as his ultimate goes i LOVE this change. i played a skarner game yesterday where i ulted an ezreal (I KNOW RIGHT) and when he got into my suppression his jump happened so he jumped away as the suppression hit so he flung himself back into me. forcing a flash and we still killed him. idk if thats a bug or because he was slow on jumping.


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encyclopedea

Senior Member

12-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyReborn View Post
as far as his ultimate goes i LOVE this change. i played a skarner game yesterday where i ulted an ezreal (I KNOW RIGHT) and when he got into my suppression his jump happened so he jumped away as the suppression hit so he flung himself back into me. forcing a flash and we still killed him. idk if thats a bug or because he was slow on jumping.
THAT is a bug. They fixed that a while ago, it shouldn't be happening anymore. Actually, that fix was what triggered Skarner's downfall in popularity. But yeah, the ult change is so nice. It's pretty much the only part I truly like about the rework.


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SoulCrapper

Junior Member

12-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LulzSec View Post
Frozen heart = CDR, utility and durability. And it's one of the most gold efficient items, not to mention it is the perfect item on Skarner. Shurelia's is really garbage on him tbh, he has plenty of speed. I don't even run MS quints anymore, I'm still the fastest in the game. I'm currently 11-1 with him, 5.0+kda every game at D1 (even in the game I lost). If people put the kind of effort I did into Skarner instead of using the same build that was nerfed, they'd realize he wasn't ****. Part of it is because I have the experience with Skarner; I have had a few friends in D1 try my setup and do alright with it but say it felt weird. I've played it enough to know what I can and can't do with it. It works for me, and I bet it will work for someone who puts some effort into it.

For those interested: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/21010164
Interesting. If nothing else it is different from what I usually do on skarner. It certainly warrants experimenting with. The xp quints intrigue me. Your skarner masteries and overall build is definitely more offensive. It looks like you're trying to carry your games with him rather than just be a defensive utility tank. Frozen heart works with this build because since youve put so much into offense the massive armor you gain from frozen heart supplements your lack of initial defense. Having both triforce and lizard elder on skarner makes me somewhat nervous as it lacks the tankiness and cc reduction that I'm used to getting early on him. I can only imagine the insane damage you must be dealing out though with the true damage and triforce sheen proc.

UPDATED*
Just tried out your setup. I was level 18 before anybody else.I certainly felt a little slower without my ms quints though. However I ended the game with a score of 7/1/17 and did the most damage to champions on my team. High risk high reward. Still couldn't out trade a Riven with her ulti up though even though I was two levels higher than her with sheen and Lizard elder. A solid build overall. Very fun.
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The11thLetter

Junior Member

12-01-2013

Well I can think of 3 solutions to keep skarner's slow on q

The first being that while shielded with his W Skarner gets a slow on his q (like urgot) and every time his q lands a successful hit it extends the shield duration by 1 sec (to some max amount of time) and ups the shield by 25-50 or some amount or up per enemy hit (good for jungle?). This makes it a priority to take out skarner's shield so that he can't permaslow you and allows skarner to permaslow someone who doesn't take advantage of his current low shield and allow it to drag on. (However slight adjustments might have to be made so that a skarner coming from the jungle can't have like a 300 shield when coming in for an early gank, such as the shield increase/duration only applies when q hits champions.)

The second being that keeping skarner's slow the way it is (reduce it by 5-10% at max if must) , have his q apply a mark for however many seconds (5?) when first hit by his slow. New q hits do not extend the mark but during this time new q slows are X% effective (50%?) and so even if spamming it a max lvl will usually be only 2-3 q's and they will be less effective and thus easier to get away from skarner.

The last being q slows apply a mark last (5-7 sec?)and after however so many marks (2-3?) they are immune from slows for the rest of the time. This makes skarner less spammy of his q's as he knows that it will only work so many times and if skarner is chasing and teammates are way behind he could lose the target by using it too early.


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WilbusDumbledore

Junior Member

12-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Now that patch 3.14 is out, Skarner is coming back to the PBE for some real in game testing!

Crystal Slash
-Mana cost reduced from 20/22/24/26/28 to 16/18/20/22/24
-When target is hit, applies an attack speed buff for 5s that stacks up to 3 times 4/5/6/7/8
-Slow removed from Crystal Slash (moved to Fracture)

Exoskeleton
-Attack speed component removed
-Cooldown lowered from 18s to 14s
-Max movepseed increased from 15/17/19/21/23 to 24/28/32/36/40 and ramps up over 3s
-Duration remains at 6s
-Shield value increased from 70/115/160/205/250 to 80/135/190/245/300
-Shield AP ratio increased from 0.6 to 0.8

Fracture
-Mana cost reduced from 50/55/60/65/70 to 30/35/40/45/50
-Heal removed
-Targets hit are slowed by 30/35/40/45/50 for 2.5s
-Missile range increased 800->1000
-Missile width reduced 120->90

Impale
-Impale now roots targeted champion during the windup animation
-VO for “feel my sting” etc will happen on successful grab instead of cast start

Once the next PBE update hits, let's get some real testing and see how this kit plays.
I've been reading through this, and I'm pretty excited about these changes, and while I realize it's probably too late to throw in my own 2 cents, I'm going to anyway.

Considering the ability changes and the name change to W .... pressing W to give him an exoskeleton seems silly. He's a scorpion, his exoskeleton is always on. Why not make his W a passive %Armor and %Magic Resist with an active that gives him a movement speed increase with lingering vulnerability during cool down? This gives Skarner players more tactical decisions to make and seem more exoskeletony.


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gcowhsu

Member

12-02-2013

Without Shurleia's skarner pretty much sucks. None of the items that build into Twin Shadows help him with jungling so you get that way too late. The ramp up on his movement speed which you note here can not even compete with the 40% you get from shurelia's. To be honest it should be the other way around, start fast and ramp down, to even be remotely useful.

If you take out a core item for a champion you need to help him. You already killed him in s3 by putting all the empahsis on 1 monster in the jungle. Now you are just nailing the coffin with the new jungle camp being 1 super strong monster and making shurelia's really useless on Skarner. Skarner was unique because you don't build any jungling items on him you rush shurelias and then proceed to pressure lane since no one escapes him without flash.

The reason you pick skarner is for his ult, being probably the best initator in the game. Without the extra speed shurlia gives good luck getting that ult off since it has horrible range.


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7SINENVY

Member

12-02-2013

Pfft, rework Maokai first!


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GypsyReborn

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by encyclopedea View Post
THAT is a bug. They fixed that a while ago, it shouldn't be happening anymore. Actually, that fix was what triggered Skarner's downfall in popularity. But yeah, the ult change is so nice. It's pretty much the only part I truly like about the rework.
no no what happened was my suppression went off. he was in the ultimate and everything when his jump went off. im 100% sure that shouldn't be happening but i know for a fact i experienced it l0l.

it used to be where if he jumped first and then you ulted he would be captured anyway and be flung back into melee range. so it was the other way around from what i was describing here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyIinh View Post
Well I can think of 3 solutions to keep skarner's slow on q

The first being that while shielded with his W Skarner gets a slow on his q (like urgot) and every time his q lands a successful hit it extends the shield duration by 1 sec (to some max amount of time) and ups the shield by 25-50 or some amount or up per enemy hit (good for jungle?). This makes it a priority to take out skarner's shield so that he can't permaslow you and allows skarner to permaslow someone who doesn't take advantage of his current low shield and allow it to drag on. (However slight adjustments might have to be made so that a skarner coming from the jungle can't have like a 300 shield when coming in for an early gank, such as the shield increase/duration only applies when q hits champions.)

The second being that keeping skarner's slow the way it is (reduce it by 5-10% at max if must) , have his q apply a mark for however many seconds (5?) when first hit by his slow. New q hits do not extend the mark but during this time new q slows are X% effective (50%?) and so even if spamming it a max lvl will usually be only 2-3 q's and they will be less effective and thus easier to get away from skarner.

The last being q slows apply a mark last (5-7 sec?)and after however so many marks (2-3?) they are immune from slows for the rest of the time. This makes skarner less spammy of his q's as he knows that it will only work so many times and if skarner is chasing and teammates are way behind he could lose the target by using it too early.
i am definitely in favor of the 3rd option here. the reason why skarner is a fun champion on live right now is primarily BECAUSE you can stick to people. because you CAN stick to champions like glue in which no other champion actually can without building some items that allows them to (i.e. gauntlet + frozen mallet).


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Karede

Senior Member

12-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyReborn View Post



i am definitely in favor of the 3rd option here. the reason why skarner is a fun champion on live right now is primarily BECAUSE you can stick to people. because you CAN stick to champions like glue in which no other champion actually can without building some items that allows them to (i.e. gauntlet + frozen mallet).
So you would prefer a flat nerf to what live Skarner is. Interesting. You would prefer a straight nerf than what they are giving us now.