Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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venomxl

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Senior Member

11-23-2013

Scruffy- To make Skarner viable, you must give a reason to pick him over other junglers. So why would I pick Skarner over other top tier junglers? Your rework hasn't addressed this, and has in fact made him worse.

Until you can explain how Skarner beats the prohibitive opportunity cost of picking him over other top tier junglers with better CC, better gap closing and better item scaling, then he's still broken.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by venomxl View Post
Scruffy- To make Skarner viable, you must give a reason to pick him over other junglers. So why would I pick Skarner over other top tier junglers? Your rework hasn't addressed this, and has in fact made him worse.

Until you can explain how Skarner beats the prohibitive opportunity cost of picking him over other top tier junglers with better CC, better gap closing and better item scaling, then he's still broken.
I can explain that, but you're probably not going to like the answer. The idea is that they'll rework Skarner, and then release him in a state that may be slightly weak. However, once Skarner has been reworked, then they will be willing to buff him. They will be willing to buff reworked Skarner until he has enough numerical strength to make him good. The reason they will be willing to do this is because he won't have the permaslow mechanic that they dislike. So, the basic idea is that while they do want this rework to be a buff, they also want to make sure he will not be OP, so they're willing to release him weak and then buff him up if they need to, because they'll actually be willing to give him buffs after the rework.


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APrinnyDood

Junior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Can you please stop doing this? Stop defending Scruffy and the people destroying him. Just stop.. Please let the people who like the champion state their argument without some idiot telling scruffy he's done a fine job
Dude, that wasn't defending. He said that they aren't willing to work with Skarner now, but they'll be willing to work with Skarner once they remove his most fun mechanic. That's probably why he said the dude wouldn't like the explanation, because it paints a pretty negative picture of Riot. And you know what? He's right. This is exactly what Riot will do, because it's what they've done in the past. They have a mechanic they don't like, so they leave a champion alone forever, and then after removing that mechanic, they'll be willing to buff him. Take the Heimer rework, the Sivir rework, the Yi rework. In each, there was some mechanic or kit element they hated (non-targeted missiles and turrets working globally, attack speed aura on ult, infinite heal and 100% of resetting damage done while untargetable), and they removed the mechanic and were then willing to put the champion in a balanced spot. Hell, it's what they always say at the start of these reworks: "this is meant to put champion X in a point where they can be balanced, so focus on kit elements rather than numbers".

Jesus Christ, would you stop trying to restart that bloody argument? You two argued circles about whether there was anything a ranged slow could possibly be better for than a ranged slow for like 5 pages and accomplished nothing other than demonstrating that you have no argumentative skills and will argue about the smallest most inconsequential thing and he's got minimal argumentative skills and is just as stubborn as you are. At least he's stopped responding to posts you make to other people. Will you take a goddamn hint and do the same? Please, just stop responding to him. No one else gives a **** about your vendetta.

You have some good arguments man (a few ****ty ones too, like the direct skillXskill comparisons, but hey, we've all got bad arguments). You're passionate about arguing about Skarner. From a fellow Skarner fan, take some advice. You look like a brickhead when you do this. You look like some typical internet tough guy. No one cares if you dislike this guy here. It just undermines your own credibility if you're spending time telling another guy not to post instead of analyzing the rework (particularly when that guy is completely ****ing right).


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Karede

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Stop defending Scruffy and make scruffy defend his stances. Saying that "Riot always does this" is an excuse for Scruffy to say, "Well if we do, that's ok then!"

Riot doesn't always do this. The only other champ I can think of that had their best mechanic destroyed like this is Eve, and I would propose that they didn't destroy her as thoroughly as they are destroying Skarner. This is different.

This isn't a rework of how Heimer's turrets function. This is taking Heimer's turrets completely away.


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APrinnyDood

Junior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
I'm tired of sightless doing Riot's defending for them.. Stop defending Scruffy and make scruffy defend his stances. I'm not retarting anything. It's time to let people say how they feel about the changes and not defend riot just for the ske of defending them.. Sightless AGREES it's a nerf. Stick to AGREEING with the nerf please
You can agree that it's a nerf while acknowledging what will happen. The thing that Sightless just posted was right. That is exactly what they will do. They will be more willing to buff Skarner after they take away his key mechanic. Don't just argue that we shouldn't be bringing that up. Argue that we should find this insulting that they think the permaslow mechanic is toxic enough to demand changing the rest of his kit. Instead of hiding the information, use it as a method of attack.

You think that we have to only talk about the things that are negative in order to be persuasive that it's a nerf. To be entirely frank, I'm pretty goddamn sure that you're wrong. If all we can do is shout "bad bad bad bad", then we don't have arguments. Instead, acknowledge things that are good in the rework, and then say why they aren't good enough to make up for the costs. It's much more persuasive if it looks like we know what the **** we're talking about, and we know it well enough to be able to both acknowledge the oppositions's arguments and say why they're ****ing wrong.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-23-2013

You are accepting defeat on permaslow. The only thing that matters to me is that we do not accept defeat on the Q's permaslow.

It's going to be a completely different champion without permaslow. I spent money on this champ because I liked the champ. If they change the champ completely, why did I buy what I bought? I don't want a crappy ranged slow, I want the champ I bought, who's main mechanic is based on his Q giving permaslow.


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APrinnyDood

Junior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
You are accepting defeat on permaslow. The only thing that matters to me is that we do not accept defeat on the Q's permaslow.

It's going to be a completely different champion without permaslow. I spent money on this champ because I liked the champ. If they change the champ completely, why did I buy what I bought? I don't want a crappy ranged slow, I want the champ I bought, who's main mechanic is based on his Q giving permaslow.
Who the hell is accepting defeat on permaslow? Most everyone is arguing that Skarner will need that to be viable. That doesn't mean we can't see that a ranged slow can do a thing or two that permaslow can't, and it doesn't meant that we can't see that Riot will eventually make Skarner balanced by ****ing with numbers after the rework, because both of those things are true. What it does mean is that we say that the former won't be sufficient without massive number buffs, and the latter is insulting because it can and should be done to the current kit instead of the reworked kit that removes permaslow. You're too stuck on what people are doing in the preliminary analysis step. Counterarguments man, counterarguments.

If you want the champion, you'll be served better by working with the people who agree with you, not against them. It's hard to be persuasive when the number one thing you're known for is in-fighting. You could have pointed out after Sightless's last post that we shouldn't be happy with the policy that Riot is taking towards "permaslow has to go" because their primary argument of him having no counterplay is goddamn bull****. From the posts he's made, I'd be willing to bet he'd agree with you. Instead, you chose to attack him. ****ing productive.

Whatever. You'll do what you want.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by APrinnyDood View Post

If you want the champion, you'll be served better by working with the people who agree with you, not against them. It's hard to be persuasive when the number one thing you're known for is in-fighting. You could have pointed out after Sightless's last post that we shouldn't be happy with the policy that Riot is taking towards "permaslow has to go" because their primary argument of him having no counterplay is goddamn bull****. From the posts he's made, I'd be willing to bet he'd agree with you. Instead, you chose to attack him. ****ing productive.
SOrry that I kicked your dog. He was barking loudly and I overreacted. I don't like sightless's perspective. Why do you care so much?

I'm not happy with the policy. I don't think giving voice to what will "probably happen" is helping the change go away. I think it supports the policy by backdooring the idea that they don't need to change the policy. They do NOT need to change the permaslow. It's not inevitable. I don't agree with him. I don't think sightless has good insight on this topic.

I'm also kinda done talking about this.

I'm still waiting for a Riot post as to why these changes will help Skarner? I'd love to hear why these changes were implemented.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LulzSec View Post
So taking into account the mastery changes, I still think EXP runes are ideal. The addition of another camp and the mastery updates will make up for the loss of the EXP mastery.

I guess I created this build a little late, but I think his jungle will improve with the changes. 21 offense is a more viable option for him.
What do you think now that the extra 5% is gone? I loved your masteries and runes before the utility tree changed, but now I am kinda on the fence whether it's worth to finish the utility tree or get cooldown from Offense and go 13 into defense. Feels like I'm slow without the move speed quints now, where 4 days ago it didn't.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
SOrry that I kicked your dog. He was barking loudly and I overreacted. I don't like sightless's perspective. Why do you care so much?

I'm not happy with the policy. I don't think giving voice to what will "probably happen" is helping the change go away. I think it supports the policy by backdooring the idea that they don't need to change the policy. They do NOT need to change the permaslow. It's not inevitable. I don't agree with him. I don't think sightless has good insight on this topic.

I'm also kinda done talking about this.

I'm still waiting for a Riot post as to why these changes will help Skarner? I'd love to hear why these changes were implemented.
I never suggested that this was inevitable, merely that this is what would occur. Remember than when I say that this is what is likely to happen, I'm taking it from what Riot has already done. They already have this plan. My bringing it up isn't telling them anything they don't already know. However, it is important that we react to what they intend to do. For example, if we simply argue that the removal of permaslow will make Skarner weaker, the response in their mind is "so what, we'll buff him if he's weak". Therefore, we not only have to explain why removing it won't just make him weak, but we also have to address why it will make him less satisfying to play, and we have to address their fundamental propositions about A. why they think Skarner needs a rework and B. why they think that permaslow must be removed. We're unlikely to win on a straight "skarner will be weaker" argument because they intend to balance him after this in a way they would refuse to do now.

Either way, I'm not going to comply with your requests to stop posting. You'll keep asking, I'm sure.

As for why he may care, I think his reason may be similar to mine. I view your method as limited because you purposely try to limit debate to focus on negatives instead of acknowledging positives and saying why they aren't sufficient. We've been over that though, so I don't think we need to reopen that any more.

With that said, I would like to see a more comphrensive post detailing what exactly the benefits and costs to Skarner are from Riot's point of view. Most of Scruffy's posts in the past focus very highly on the positives, and while he has acknowledged a few points (the midgame weakness being a key one), he hasn't gone into enough detail about what he considers the costs, particularly to solo chasing or Skirmish clean-up.

Also, has anyone heard anything about when Skarner is getting enabled the PBE? The dataminers said he was readded, but he's currently disabled. Getting back to testing would be useful.