Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Nuclear Dragon

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by venomxl View Post
Also, you're never allowed to use the words counterplay as long as Karthus' R exists. Doesn't matter about vision, or range, or anything. No aiming, just press R, massive damage, KS for days. Until that atrocity is fixed, you can't complain about a melee with no gap closer sticking to someone after they get to them.
Elise E, Fizz E, Banshee's Veil, Zhonya's Hourglass, any generic CC on a visible living Karthus. There's your counterplay. Unlike the DOTA equivalent, you actually get a heads up and can interrupt it.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Crystal Slash
-Mana cost reduced from 20/22/24/26/28 to 16/18/20/22/24
-When target is hit, applies an attack speed buff for 5s that stacks up to 3 times 4/5/6/7/8
-Slow removed from Crystal Slash (moved to Fracture)

Exoskeleton
-Attack speed component removed
-Cooldown lowered from 18s to 14s
-Max movepseed increased from 15/17/19/21/23 to 24/28/32/36/40 and ramps up over 3s
-Duration remains at 6s
-Shield value increased from 70/115/160/205/250 to 80/135/190/245/300
-Shield AP ratio increased from 0.6 to 0.8

Fracture
-Mana cost reduced from 50/55/60/65/70 to 30/35/40/45/50
-Heal removed
-Targets hit are slowed by 30/35/40/45/50 for 2.5s
-Missile range increased 800->1000
-Missile width reduced 120->90
Scruffy, this list is what people have a major problem with the changes for - there are too many other junglers that do a much better job at everything. Look at how many other junglers here who have either a stronger slow, a much better cooldown, or both. All of them bring more to the team than Skarner would, with these changes.

To be very clear, Skarner's slow defined what the champion was picked for. Why would he be changed so dramatically without a clear skill to rely on now?

Skarner's new slow: 50% slow, 2.5 second duration, 1000 range, 10 second cooldown

Skarner's old slow: 40% slow, 2 second duration, 3 second cooldown

-maokai - 48% slow, 2 second duration, 6 second cooldown, also knocks back champions and does MORE damage than skarners E
-Lee sin - 60% slow, 4 second duration, 10 second cooldown
-malphite - 26% slow, 4 second duration, 26% movement speed GAINED for 4 seconds, 8 second cooldown
-Zac - 40% slow, 2 second duration, 7 second cooldown
-Tryndamere's slow: 60% slow, 4 second duration, 14 second cooldown, similar auto attack synergy
-Nunu's Slow: 60% slow, 3 second duration 6 second cooldown, burst damage
-AAtrox slow: 50% slow, 2.75 second duration, exact same range (1000), 8 second cooldown
-Sejuani slow: 70% slow, 2.5 second duration, 11 second cooldown
-Rammus's slow: 40% slow, 3 second duration, 10 second cooldown
-Nasus's slow: 95% slow, 5 second duration, 11 second cooldown
-Volibear - 50% slow, 3 second duration, 11 second cooldown. Tons of burst, a throwback (gapclose) and automatic extra attack speed instead of attack speed tied to charges. (albeit similar in the way it builds up)
-Rengar - 70% slow, 2.5 second duration. 8 second cooldown. Does rengar have burst? LOLOLOL yes..
-Xin Zhao- 45% slow, 2 second duration, 10 second cooldown with the option of lowering it to 7 (if you use his Q to do so) This skill also closes gaps, xin has extreme burst with his Q and a pop up with his burst skill on a 5 second cooldown. He also has automatic attack speed out of his W, up to 80% (with a heal attached to it)

The list goes on...



There are SOOOOOOO many better junglers now...

8% attack speed stacking on the Q is kind of insulting... We had more on exoskeleton before, and Xin Zhao gets 80% on an active, for example.


@scruffy: Would it be possible to get an explanation on how you think these changes will help Skarner be viable? What are your thoughts on why his slow is so weak when compared to other champions now? His slow really did define the champion. What is the theory-crafting behind them?


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Awesomax

Senior Member

11-21-2013

What Karede said-- I'm really scared that if you take away Skarner's slow from his Q, he'll just become another damage jungler like Nocturne (not that there's anything wrong with Noc- it's just that people like Nocturne can do stuff so much better than this kit). I really appreciate all the time and effort you guys at Riot are putting into Skarner here, but I think the one thing you can't change about him (besides his Ult) is his Q slow.

I'm going to try and get onto the PBE so I can play this new Skarner, however. I don't want to condemn him before I ever play his new kit. I'll post some impressions at that time.


...I don't want to have to main Maokai instead of Skarner though...


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Karede

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Dragon View Post
Elise E, Fizz E, Banshee's Veil, Zhonya's Hourglass, any generic CC on a visible living Karthus. There's your counterplay. Unlike the DOTA equivalent, you actually get a heads up and can interrupt it.
Ezreal's jump, tristana's jump, morgana's shield, riven's jump, lee's jump, lux's snare, morgana's snare, tarics stun, sion's stun, riven's stun, nasus's slow, tryndamere's jump, sejuani's jump, caitlyn's net, veigar's stun, kat's jump, jax's jump, draven's knockback, sona's ult, fiddle's fear, annie's stun, alistairs kick, alistairs popup, chogath's popup, corki's jump, jayce's knockback, jayce's gateway, kassadin's jump, kennen's stun, kennens movespeed, nami's popup, nami's ult, lissandra's jump, lucians jump, orianna's movespeed and ult, singed's sludge and ult, twitch dissapering, tf's ult, Zed's shadow, ziggs mines, zyra's vines and ult, trundle's pillar, anivia's wall, nautalis hooking a wall, his passive and ult, his passive and slow, sivir's spellshield, sivir's ult, nidalee's jump, nocturne's spellshield, leblanc's 2 jumps, shyvanna's ult, aatrox's jump, ashe's ult and kiting, fizz's jump, gragas' jump, Khazix's jump, karma's snare, jarvan's 2 jumps, gangplanks cc cleanse, nunu's better slow and permanent bloodboil movespeed...

I mean... Do you need me to keep going on how many counter plays there are out there to get away from Skarner? That new Ice Queen's support item active is great for getting away from him. Driving me nuts already. And Banshee's veil is at least as good as a counterplay to Skarner as it is to Karthus!

Oh, and Quicksilver Sash... ... ... This item wrecks Skarner


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Moriyokiri

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Is there any update on this rework? What is Skarner like on the PBE now?


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Squ4tch

Member

11-21-2013

keep up the good work Scruffy I'm WAY to excited to play the new Skarner, he was my main for so long until........ the nerf happened....... damn you morello!

but for real, everything seems absolutely fantastic so far man


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Tsuusetsu

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Scruffy, this list is what people have a major problem with the changes for - there are too many other junglers that do a much better job at everything. Look at how many other junglers here who have either a stronger slow, a much better cooldown, or both. All of them bring more to the team than Skarner would, with these changes.

To be very clear, Skarner's slow defined what the champion was picked for. Why would he be changed so dramatically without a clear skill to rely on now?

Skarner's new slow: 50% slow, 2.5 second duration, 1000 range, 10 second cooldown

Skarner's old slow: 40% slow, 2 second duration, 3 second cooldown

-cho'gath - 60% slow, 4 second duration, 8 second cooldown, also pops them up for 1 second
-maokai - 48% slow, 2 second duration, 6 second cooldown, also knocks back champions and does MORE damage than skarners E
-Lee sin - 60% slow, 4 second duration, 10 second cooldown
-malphite - 26% slow, 4 second duration, 26% movement speed GAINED for 4 seconds, 8 second cooldown
-Zac - 40% slow, 2 second duration, 7 second cooldown
-Tryndamere's slow: 60% slow, 4 second duration, 14 second cooldown, similar auto attack synergy
-Nunu's Slow: 60% slow, 3 second duration 6 second cooldown, burst damage
-AAtrox slow: 50% slow, 2.75 second duration, exact same range (1000), 8 second cooldown
-Sejuani slow: 70% slow, 2.5 second duration, 11 second cooldown
-Rammus's slow: 40% slow, 3 second duration, 10 second cooldown
-Nasus's slow: 95% slow, 5 second duration, 11 second cooldown
-Volibear - 50% slow, 3 second duration, 11 second cooldown. Tons of burst, a throwback (gapclose) and automatic extra attack speed instead of attack speed tied to charges. (albeit similar in the way it builds up)
-Rengar - 70% slow, 2.5 second duration. 8 second cooldown. Does rengar have burst? LOLOLOL yes..
-Xin Zhao- 45% slow, 2 second duration, 10 second cooldown with the option of lowering it to 7 (if you use his Q to do so) This skill also closes gaps, xin has extreme burst with his Q and a pop up with his burst skill on a 5 second cooldown. He also has automatic attack speed out of his W, up to 80% (with a heal attached to it)

The list goes on...



There are SOOOOOOO many better junglers now...

8% attack speed stacking on the Q is kind of insulting... We had more on exoskeleton before, and Xin Zhao gets 80% on an active, for example.


@scruffy: Would it be possible to get an explanation on how you think these changes will help Skarner be viable? What are your thoughts on why his slow is so weak when compared to other champions now? His slow really did define the champion. What is the theory-crafting behind them?
You're also forgetting that skarner reduces his own cooldowns by a second for every auto attack he lands against an enemy champion. 1 auto attack = minus 1 second on the cd. 3 auto attacks = minus 3 seconds. Building a little attack speed (like most do) If you auto attack 5 times the cooldown goes from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. With the duration at 2.5 seconds thats only 2.5 seconds the enemy champion is NOT slowed by. Factor in cooldown reduction as well..say, 20% reduces the cooldown from 10 seconds to 8 seconds. So it only takes 3 auto attacks for the slow to be up 50% of the time. Add in 40% CDR the cooldown becomes 6 seconds. Meaning 1 auto attack for 50% upkeep time. And if he has 3 auto attacks, then it has a 100% upkeep time. Still seem bad?


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Stampede EU

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Now that patch 3.14 is out, Skarner is coming back to the PBE for some real in game testing!

Crystal Slash
-Mana cost reduced from 20/22/24/26/28 to 16/18/20/22/24
-When target is hit, applies an attack speed buff for 5s that stacks up to 3 times 4/5/6/7/8
-Slow removed from Crystal Slash (moved to Fracture)

Exoskeleton
-Attack speed component removed
-Cooldown lowered from 18s to 14s
-Max movepseed increased from 15/17/19/21/23 to 24/28/32/36/40 and ramps up over 3s
-Duration remains at 6s
-Shield value increased from 70/115/160/205/250 to 80/135/190/245/300
-Shield AP ratio increased from 0.6 to 0.8

Fracture
-Mana cost reduced from 50/55/60/65/70 to 30/35/40/45/50
-Heal removed
-Targets hit are slowed by 30/35/40/45/50 for 2.5s
-Missile range increased 800->1000
-Missile width reduced 120->90

Impale
-Impale now roots targeted champion during the windup animation
-VO for “feel my sting” etc will happen on successful grab instead of cast start

Once the next PBE update hits, let's get some real testing and see how this kit plays.
I still hope you'll be handing out refunds. I want nothing to do with this gimpfest Skarner.

And a 24% AS steroid that needs to be stacked up to that pathetic amount over time is frankly insulting.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuusetsu View Post
You're also forgetting that skarner reduces his own cooldowns by a second for every auto attack he lands against an enemy champion. 1 auto attack = minus 1 second on the cd. 3 auto attacks = minus 3 seconds. Building a little attack speed (like most do) If you auto attack 5 times the cooldown goes from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. With the duration at 2.5 seconds thats only 2.5 seconds the enemy champion is NOT slowed by. Factor in cooldown reduction as well..say, 20% reduces the cooldown from 10 seconds to 8 seconds. So it only takes 3 auto attacks for the slow to be up 50% of the time. Add in 40% CDR the cooldown becomes 6 seconds. Meaning 1 auto attack for 50% upkeep time. And if he has 3 auto attacks, then it has a 100% upkeep time. Still seem bad?
It sure does, let's talk about the 30 minutes of the game it takes you to get to 40% cooldown, and what Skarner is going to do the majority of the time in games: gank.

The passive is great, but only works if you get to auto attack. Currently, auto attacking is pretty easy once you lock in the Q. However, let's use a hypothetical, typical gank to explain what is gonna happen now.

Run in, apply slow, auto attack twice, they run away. You still have 6 seconds before the slow is ready, you have less attack speed than you did before these changes, and you still have no burst skill. You also have a weaker shield (your movement speed gets crushed quickly) because you have to invest in E instead of a 2nd level of W, which means your slow stays at just a 30% slow until your W is maxed.

You're being disingenuous. Lots of the champions listed have similar uptimes to the uptimes you are talking about at 40% CDR.


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The Hook

Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by venomxl View Post
Why pick Skarner over the viable junglers? What does he bring that Zac, Aatrox, Elise, Jarvan, Lee, etc. can't? If you can't answer that question, then he's not viable.
I main mid, and Skarner is one of my least favorite, if not least favorite jungle to play against.

His ulti is absolutely devastating and ridiculously hard to escape from when the Skarner knows what he is doing. Also, when built properly he is tanky as all hell late game and very hard to get away from.

I can't tell you how many times I have gotten flash speed boost ultid mid against a Skarner that put me behind mid when I was winning lane.