Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Graub

Junior Member

10-22-2013

Okay, let me see if i got it.

They took the Q slow, raised it 10% per level but now we can use it only after 8 seconds (with passive) instead of 1~2 seconds.

Then they increased some move speed on W but it is like Hecarim. We cant run off a chase anymore with this spell.

Finally, they took the W attack speed 30/35/40/45/50% and NERFED it to 4/5/6/7/8% per stack at a 3 maximum stacks. We don't have instant attack speed anymore and when we can finally get all the stacks it is less than half of current skarner.

Nope. I can't see where is the buff in this.


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Wobiwobi

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graub View Post
Okay, let me see if i got it.

They took the Q slow, raised it 10% per level but now we can use it only after 8 seconds (with passive) instead of 1~2 seconds.

Then they increased some move speed on W but it is like Hecarim. We cant run off a chase anymore with this spell.

Finally, they took the W attack speed 30/35/40/45/50% and NERFED it to 4/5/6/7/8% per stack at a 3 maximum stacks. We don't have instant attack speed anymore and when we can finally get all the stacks it is less than half of current skarner.

Nope. I can't see where is the buff in this.
like I said in previous post

RIOT balancing team = silly people that press random numbers and swap skills effects from one to another sadly with bad effect..poor Skarner

His Q WAS PERFECT as it was .... only his W and E need a bit of rework, specially E since no one bothered leveing it until last levels.

Now they are trying to make him be more like Shyvana while atm he is like weaker version of Udyr >.> only his clear speed will be faster but his ganking potential will be TRASH with 1 skillshot based CC skill with long CD and chance to miss. He won't be able to stick to his target like now.


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WuteverEU

Senior Member

10-22-2013

A repost of my original thread on the (deadish) PBE forums. Original thread can be found here: http://community.pbe.leagueoflegends...neral-feedback

Quote:
A short intro - I consider myself fairly seasoned Skarner player. He was my most played jungler by far during season 2, both ranked and normal games, after he got his first batch of buffs that made him actually usable. I for the most part stopped playing him as much after the he got repeatedly nerfed by direct nerfs, item changes, jungle changes and meta changes. Now to the point.

I simply cannot understand how somebody could ever come to the conclusion that this was a good idea for a rework. Skarner's core strength outside of his ultimate was mobile lockdown - the ability to slow his target and stick to it indefinitely or until an escape or CC is used. This is now gone completely.

Let's take a closer look:

RANGE: 1000 COOLDOWN: 10 COST: 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 MANA
MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+ 70% AP)
SLOW: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 %
DURATION: 2.5 seconds

RANGE: 1000 COOLDOWN: 8 COST: 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 MANA
PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 (+100% bonus AD)
SLOW: 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 / 55%
SLOW DURATION: 2.5


Can you even guess which one is Fracture? Do you know what the other skill is? A slightly modified Undertow - Olaf's Q (I removed the variable range and duration). Is this a joke or is this what you call creativity nowadays? But back to Fracture.

As we can see, Fracture right now has a 7.6 second cooldown at 24% CDR (junglers will most of the time be stuck at this CDR, as blue and Golem+Locket both give 20% CDR). In a best case scenario during a gank this can be reduced to 5.6 seconds (maybe 4.6 against somebody that just lets you beat them up), meaning that AT BEST Fracture's slow will have a 45% uptime BEFORE REDUCTIONS compared to the near 100% uptime of the live version of his slow.

This brings us to the next point - slows are weak CC and a mediocre ganking tool. All of the top junglers in the game have access to early hard CC and / or instant gap closing. Slows can be reduced by both Tenacity and Slow Reduction. The reason why Skarner was a threat at all (both during early ganks and counterjungling ) was the persistence of his slow (similar to Undertow, but in a good sense).

15% tenacity brings the slow down to 2.125 seconds (38% uptime)
35% tenacity brings the slow down to 1.625 seconds (29% uptime)
45% tenacity brings the slow down to 1.375 seconds (25% uptime)

15% slow reduction brings the slow down to 25.5/29.75/34/38.25/42.5
25% slow reduction brings the slow down to 22.5/26.25/30/33.75/37.5
36% slow reduction brings the slow down to 19.2/22.4/25.6/28.8/32

The live version of Skarner's slow effectively only got reduced by slow reduction, but not by tenacity, as it could be reapplied nearly instantly after wearing off if played right. The rework version of his slow gets affected by both tenacity and slow reduction AND can be Cleansed on top of it, further reducing its uptime to a potential 25% instead of near 100%.

This isn't over yet, however. A complaint voiced for ages by Skarner players hasn't been heard. Why does E still have a cast animation that stuns you? Skarner is based around mobility and staying on the move during combat, so why does his one and only way of slowing runners and peeling still root him in place? This is completely counter productive.

But it gets even worse - you can't use Fracture during Imaple. Why? Yes, this functions the same way on live as well, but his slow is not tied to Fracture on live. One of the wonderful things about Skarner was his ability to peel with both his Q slow and his ultimate. You could potentially kite two enemies at a time with this move. Why is this functionality, on top of the massive nerfs to his core feature, getting removed completely?

So in conclusion (TL;DR):
  1. Skarner's slow uptime after connecting once is changed from 100% to 45%
  2. Skarner's slow uptime after connecting once is changed from near 100% to 25% taking tenacity into account
  3. Fracture (E) still roots him into place while casting, making chasing even harder and his personal effective slow uptime even lower
  4. Fracture (E) still cannot be used during Impale (R) while Crystal Slash (Q) and its live version's slow can be used during Imaple (R)
  5. Distributing the power of his two core skills among three skills hits his already mediocre early game extremely hard
  6. His kit feels completely generic, dilluted and ineffective with nothing unique to it - in short, it feels like a big "f*ck you" in my face
  7. He is essentially a worse version of Hecarim and Olaf combined
  8. His all-round damage may be higher when under attack, but his durability late game is much lower due to his heal getting removed
  9. His ultimate still breaks when any sort of dash or blink is used (adding more to the "f*ck you" effect the rework already has)
Quite frankly, Scruffy, I do not think you understand what makes Skarner what he is, and what it was that made him fall out of favour completely (no, it wasn't just his ultimate getting gutted - nearly every item he ever used got nerfed or made unviable in season 3 while introducing more mobile junglers with hard CC and less or no blue dependency).
Note: I specifically waited to actually test these changes on the PBE (for what testing on the PBE is worth) before posting any kind of criticism. Not everything is bad, and not everything that feels off is listed here. I just highlighted what was the most frustrating.


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venomxl

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Senior Member

10-22-2013

WuteverEU makes some phenomenal points regarding the way Skarner's abilities trigger that I hadn't previously considered.

Scruffy, the community really would like to know how Skarner becomes viable here. It seems like you're torching his defining trait (the Q permaslow is as valuable as the R, and more valuable 1-5 obviously) and giving him nothing in exchange. His CC is complete garbage until 6. His dueling is trash compared to other top tier junglers' dueling abilities (stacking attack speed buff on an AP champ?) His gap closing is non existent, as a ramp up move speed increase in the land of slingshots and demon divebombs is like bringing a super soaker to a gun fight.

Given the Olaf debacle, I would assume you would like to avoid a similar outcome with Skarner. If that is your aim, you need to ask yourself one simple question: Why would I pick Skarner over any other champion? Right now, there's no solid answer to that. What do you think makes Skarner a viable, useful jungle pick versus other viable picks right now? In economics, there's a concept called opportunity cost: Essentially it means that if I make a choice, it can't be valued on only the merits of the choice alone, but must be compared to all the other choices I could have made. Skarner's kit can't be measured in a vacuum, but has to be compared to all the other choices a jungler could make. And if it's found lacking, then you need to re-evaluate the work being done.

I don't want you to think we don't appreciate the work you're trying to do. It's impossible to please everyone. But you don't want to be doing another rework on Skarner 4-5 months from now. Measure twice, cut once. Right now, to me, your measure of the bug is a little short.


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Locke64

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by venomxl View Post
Scruffy- I want to have faith in this rework, but according to the current PBE, it looks like complete and utter ****. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I just don't see how it works. Skarner is a jungler. Any laning from him is icing on the cake, he was designed to jungle.

Let's go ability by ability, and explain why he sucks:
Q: The AD ratio and the attack speed buff are completely bipolar. No AP-centric champ has an AD ratio on their main damage ability, and even AP-centric champs that use attackspeed have some sort of modifier to their attacks to scale off AP. Ex: Teemo, Diana passive, Kayle, etc.

How are you supposed to build Skarner effectively? As an AD Bruiser to use his attackspeed and Q spam? As an AP bruiser to use his shield and fracture and lose usefulness on attack speed buff and half of Q spammed? What's his ideal build, and is his entire kit utilized through it, the way top tier junglers are?

<snip>
You forgot about his passive. The AS is there to help reduce the cooldowns on his abilities. Build him AP. Grab a WE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Four of Ten View Post
Let me answer all your questions with his equation that is mathy

Skanner = R

in this example skanner stands for skanner and R stands for "ALL I CAN DO IS PRESS R THE REST OF MY KIT IS USELESS"
Overlooking the heinous error on the left side of the equation, the right side should read "Q", assuming you're talking about current Live Skarner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyozev View Post
1.Please add something else to his E. It just feels lackluster.

2.Make the W movement speed boost immediate. He is def gonna be in the front lines so his shield is gonna get taken down very fast...

3.Offensively, he is very weird with all them ap ratios...
1. Yes, please. I see that the mark hasn't been removed yet, and I say keep it there and do something with it. Something to do with reducing cooldowns? or further AS buff? (same thing, given his passive) Or have it apply a second slow.

2. Yes, please. Ramping MS on Skarner doesn't make sense. He needs it immediately, and then once he gets close enough to land an E it doesn't matter as much anymore. All the ramp-up does is give the enemy more warning. (I realize this is exactly what you're trying to do with Skarner - make all his weaknesses completely transparent so he's super easy to counterplay)

3. Nah, I like a good AP/AS champ. Especially a tanky one. Skarner's kit revolves around using his abilities as much as possible by reducing their cooldowns. AP ratios make sense with his theme and mechanics.


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Best Veig Moon

Senior Member

10-22-2013

I see more than enough outstanding ideas here. Yet, 3 months later...sigh...


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LeoHark

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Skarner now is nice and feels a bit more stronger 1v1, I only played one game with the rework and he feels good just a little less tanky because of the removal of the heal.


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Raptor6789

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Well I haven't played Skarner on PBE yet, but I have a decent amount of experience playing the old Skarner. From what I'm seeing, Riot has removed his ability to perma-slow and continuously stick to an enemy, which, similar to Ashe, was a defining trait of Skarner outside of his ult.

Sure, I understand where Riot is coming from when they says his perma-slow was too anti-fun. However, I don't think the rework takes it in the right direction (though from what the people who have played the new Skarner are saying, he's still viable).

I would like to see some or all of the changes made to the new Skarner:
1. Remove/substantially reduce the cast time on his e. With his slow now being on this skill and thus a major tool in ganking, it becomes even more crucial for Skarner to be able to stick to his target.

2. While perma-slow might not be great, there should be some mechanic that allows Skarner to prolong/refresh his slow on targets. Perhaps his e still adds marks his targets that can be consumed to refresh the slow (either at full strength or at a smaller value).

3. If more slows aren't good, Skarner still misses his ability to permanently stick to a target. Similar to what I proposed with his slow, perhaps he should have some way to prolong his w's movement speed bonus, either through landing his Q's and/or auto-attacking.

Also, was his heal on his e removed? If so, his laning ability takes a pretty large hit. (Sure, maybe Skarner top was not the best idea, but it was still fun and viable with the old Skarner).


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venomxl

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Senior Member

10-22-2013

How could Skarner be stronger 1v1? He has no heal mark for 30-180 +.3/.6AP, his AS has to ramp up over a few attacks, his base attack speed is slower by 1%. In exchange, he gets 5-30 more health on his shield. All of that would indicate he's worse 1v1.


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PatentlyWillton

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by venomxl View Post
How could Skarner be stronger 1v1? He has no heal mark for 30-180 +.3/.6AP, his AS has to ramp up over a few attacks, his base attack speed is slower by 1%. In exchange, he gets 5-30 more health on his shield. All of that would indicate he's worse 1v1.
This is an indication that you have not played with the Skarner rework. Don't judge until you actually try it.