Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Majin Bl3u

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Thanks scruffy! Sorry I was mean in my previous post. I don't want to break up. It was just frustrating when you were seemingly avoiding questions that are important to us!

Thanks for clarifying the E cast time question. Also I personally agree that AS on Q makes more sense than on his shield (though I can't say either way about the values. It can always be fine tuned though!)


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Tulfrir

Senior Member

08-22-2013

it was really fun being able to almost 1v1 the enemy mid (if they were melee) early game, skarner has a surprising amount of damage with his q and autos
his e does nothing almost


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Khmera

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Is there an explanation to how his new heal works? Also The benefit to E is to slow, is all I really feel from this spell. E just feels so lack luster.... Also I was hoping his W would heal him like Volibear's passive. I really like this idea that when his shield is up he gain increased health per second, just like his movement speed. If the shield is destroyed then, his healing would be cancelled 1 second after it breaks.


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KillAlQaeda5871

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The attack speed numbers on Q were actually much higher in the earlier iterations of the new kit. He was totally OP in our playtests, and dominating in every phase of the game.

Skarner's damage doesn't come from his auto attacks primarily. The reason, as many of you experienced Skarner players know, that Skarner scales very well with attack speed is because of the -1s (0.5 on minions) that it applies to his spell cooldowns.

The exact numbers aren't final, but the 1% nerf on his base attack speed is a direction that we tried out and liked. We thought it was much cooler for Skarner to have slightly lower base attack speed and potentially scale up to higher numbers once he has been fighting for a few seconds.

In his pre rework design, he has tremendous attack speed IF he can keep his shield up. This can create some optimization confusion for a few reasons:

-Should I use my shield to block damage? This is ideal use of the shield mitigation, but it will break.
-Should I use my shield when I am not taking damage for the attack speed? This is great for the attack speed buff, but the shield has provided me sub optimal mitigation.

Moving the attack speed to Q has remedied this confusing element of his kit.

Additionally, a lot of the feedback on Skarner was that he has a very feast or famine gameplay. In one case, Skarner is ahead and he has a huge attack speed buff that is further increasing his lead. In the other, Skarner is losing and he can't even use his attack speed buff because the shield is broken very quickly.

With this problem in mind, the change does intentionally lower Skarner's attack speed in the best case scenario (shield is up for full duration). But the changes also bring an increase to the average attack speed and lower the standard deviation.

I'd like to continue to discuss the merits and problems with the proposed changes, and I have been seriously considering every argument made. Also, I don't have any exact dates for when he will be on the PBE yet, but I will let you know as soon as I find out.

Edit: The E still has it's old cast time, but it has extended range and a slow so if you hit, you can easily reach the target.

Thank you for knowing the real reason us Skarner players care about his AS nerf, my big concern was also about his 1st and 2nd clear times because of how his AS effects the CD on his skills. Im sure things will be tweaked on PBE and sorry for my post i didn't think it would start a fire storm (Page 184) i was just posting my opinion. Of course how is his 1st clear time compared to his live version? Knowing if his jungle clear times are better or on par with live would shut most of us up don't need exact times just to hear your word.
Now is there anyway to speed up the cast time on Skarners E so he can cast while moving? He is all about sticking to targets so being able to cast E on the run or at least you trying it out and posting results would be awesome. If it's OP I understand because even the concept of him casting E while moving sounds OP but it wouldnt hurt for you guys at Riot to try it out for us, as we are your customers after all more people will buy his upcoming skins if there happy with his light skill rework.


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Okay Scruffy, I shaw complain with more detail then:

Volibear has ramping attack speed, but he has Q as autoattack reset, and the Q makes the nemy stay in place longer, allowing him to USE such attack speed.

Jax has ramping up attack speed, but he has a stun and a gap closer letting he combo that, and he has an autoattack reset also helping he stack stuff up.

Diana has 20% passive all time, but she also gets a gap closer and a pull that slows, making sure she can proc her third attack.



Skarner will have to autoatack to stack Q faster and ramp his attack speed up, on top of that his autoattack base speed got nerfed, and the main reason people didnt use E, cause it resulted in wasted time, is still there, you wont have a fast slow at hand to help you access that power...

When you guys reworked udyr, he got a lot of pros, to what he lost (lost mana sustain for more lifesteal, R giving damage on first attack as well as ever 3 attacks, Q damage rebalanced to be more worth it). The only thing i see us getting here that wasnt nerfed, is that now i can W > Ult faster with more mov speed and they cant flash my ult...
I will basically farm jungle camps until the ult is up again and gank with that again and repeat again, that will be his game style.

Besides that, now he is a Nocturne, you need extended fights to be good, and you need to land your narrow skillshot to gank or you wont have the combination of movespeed and cc to make it worth anything.


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emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Only concern I have about the new way his attack speed works is that he loses tower damage.

Also with the slow on e it seems like the problem with Shyvana's e, where when you are chasing you never want to stop moving and e makes you stop moving, only from what it sounds like Skarner needs his e to hit a lot more than Shyvana does. However all that is a lot of speculation and I'll hold off until I see the numbers.


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Lore Master

Junior Member

08-22-2013

The more i read of thesee changes the more i feel like you're not actually fixing Skarner but moving the problems around.

I'm usually the defender of Riot changes and very much see eye-to-eye with development, but this is an instance where i'd rather see NONE of these changes go to testing and wait another 6 months for a change rather then any of these even come close to Live.

I just don't see how these "fixes" are going to improve Skarner. They will change him, but faster movment with what rally amounts to a single target slow unless you get lucky and they line up for you make your ganking abysmal pre 6.

At least good timing and positioning gave you the chance to lock down multiple targets previously. Now it's less on your positioning and more on theirs. Call that counterplay if you want, but it seems more like we're taking the small vocal group of players that find skarner's "permaslow" annoying and taking it away. Do you know how HARD it actually is to pull off a permaslow situation as Skarner against good players?


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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CeriumX View Post
The more i read of thesee changes the more i feel like you're not actually fixing Skarner but moving the problems around.

I'm usually the defender of Riot changes and very much see eye-to-eye with development, but this is an instance where i'd rather see NONE of these changes go to testing and wait another 6 months for a change rather then any of these even come close to Live.
It's funny. I usually rather dislike the riot changes for character overhauls. This is one of the few instances where I see it as a very realistic gameplay improvement.

Skarner gains a large step in general functionality, especially when he is doing poorly, and gains a larger variety of potential play from the E change and utility of his speed.

It isn't a strict buff, it is a changing of how his power scales. He now has a very reliable ability to move into a lane quickly and throw out a long range reasonably effective slow. This is a notable set of abilities and works very cohesively with his kit.


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baronvonross

Senior Member

08-22-2013

I'm just glad that somethings being done. Just because something may not be perfect doesn't mean that it's bad. You can always improve and adjust later, and it's good to get the ball rolling.
The changes to his ability roles are going in a good direction for sure. His Q seems much more responsive, his W seems a lot more efficient, and his E is useful now. One question for anyone who wants to answer, how does damage on skarner's E stack up to the old version?


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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by baronvonross View Post
I'm just glad that somethings being done. Just because something may not be perfect doesn't mean that it's bad. You can always improve and adjust later, and it's good to get the ball rolling.
The changes to his ability roles are going in a good direction for sure. His Q seems much more responsive, his W seems a lot more efficient, and his E is useful now. One question for anyone who wants to answer, how does damage on skarner's E stack up to the old version?
He already said. All values that have not been explicitly changed are the same.

So it's the same. It just has notably longer range.