Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Majin Bl3u

Senior Member

08-22-2013

I like how everyone brings up valid concerns and reason why the proposed changes aren't actually helping skarner but scruffy just puts on a trollface and says

"Yeah yeah w/e! But anyways here's what I'm doing"

Kind of like when your gf is talking to you and you aren't really paying attention and you just do what you were going to originally do without considering her input.

Lets break up with scruffy, can we get a new red on this case? We just want a man who will LISTEN to us. Just because we are players (females if you want to continue the comparison) doesn't mean we don't have insightful inputs.

Honestly I believe scruffy reads a good portion of our posts, but I also think he does not take any input seriously that suggests alternate ways to change skarner. I also think he flat out ignores complaints about what he's doing. He's pretty dead set on the path he's chosen and its a BS path honestly.


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Zeta

Senior Member

08-22-2013

The point of some balance changes is not to overtly buff a character but to place them into a position where they can be buffed. Skarner, currently, is in a position where he cannot be buffed because he only needs three skills to be effective and the only counterplay either he or his opponent have relies entirely on who has Summoner Flash up.

Both have Flash? Well, Skarner's prey gets away. Skarner has flash? Well, Skarner wins by attrition and perma-slow. Opponent has Flash and Skarner doesn't? Well, Skarner might as well afk. Making all four skills important puts him into a state where he can be balanced in regards to counterplay - this is the same sort of situation Karma and Xin Zhao were in. It doesn't really matter if these changes make Skarner worse for two patches so as long as they put him into a place where all four skills work, are relevant, and make him balancable in the long-term.

That's what Riot balances around, not letting a character be viable/borderline OP for 2 patches before they need serious nerfs into irrelevance again.


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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Lets look at these changes in summary.

Damage output: 100% identical outside of AS reductions. AS changes are a pretty mixed bag, bug tied to a consistent theme of 'DPS' rather than CC.
Survivability: 44% increase in maximum effective shielding. Pretty large increase here though it is subtle.
Sustain: Eliminated. Was about 60+.25 per 5 under ideal. Ideal use of shield is about half of that. Overall less able to recover from damage.
CC: Can be used at range, now is tied less to DPS and more to harassment. Is weaker.

The new kit combines elements.
Q: Sustained damage
W: Survivability
E: CC/chase.

These elements can now be chosen more specifically in accordance to need. Going pure CC is now realistic and potent for ganks. Each combination has its own strength and allows for multiple builds more effectively.

Its a good rework. The additional damage on charged Qs seems a bit weird now, but those AP ratios are necessary to keep multiple interesting builds legit. Mana demands are much less increasing potential lane choice and builds within lane.

I would prefer if E had the old 1-2 punch of use, but it honestly isn't that important to the skill. Overall these numbers and abilities seem good. The best rework design I have seen yet.


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I see some comments about how moving the attack speed from W to Q is a nerf. From what we have seen (and what we intended) this is a buff to his consistency and a slight buff in overall stats.

The old W gave 30/35/40/45/50% while his shield was up (0-6s).

The new Q gives 4/5/6/7/8% per stack up to 12/15/18/21/24% max.

There are a few reasons why the attack speed on Q has been more consistent and powerful for Skarner.

-Skarner players level Q before W typically, gaining the attack speed earlier in the game. This is also great for his jungle clear times, and early lane dominance (if he's laning).

-The attack speed buff is no longer reliant on his shield. In late game fights or duels, Skarner's shield was only up for ~3s. 24% attack speed all the time is stronger than 50% attack speed for 3s out of every 18s.

I'm glad you all are holding these changes to a high standard. I too want to see Skarner back into common play.
But dont lie tho!, you said his base attack speed is being nerfed, and base attack speed is that multiplies the %, so those 24% is more similar to 20~22%, and his attack speed per level is also lower. Because you nerfed his base attack speed.

I made some calculations and his 24% attack speed + per level attack speed will make him attack slower than a Diana who has 20% attack speed all the time. With that base AS nerf, Diana will will have more attack speed over all without having to stack anything, because her base is higher, her per level is higher, and her pasive is similar because of the base AS.




And answer, can we use E while moving?


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

08-22-2013

If you wanna keep these AS nerfs... What if you make skarner Q slow like a trundle Q?
Q having a 25%, 50% and 75% slow that decays over time, for 0.5s only, depeding on how much crystal energy yu got stacked. Just so he is STILL sticky and the nerfs dont feel that bad as the stacks acutally feel more worth it.


Cause right now, that feels horrible to read, considering base attack speed nerfs its even worse.
Volibear has 60% attack speed, 20% per stack, more attack speed per level, and more base attack speed.
Jax has 24% at level 1 already and he isnt broken in the jungle, at max level its 80% max, 14% per stack, and hey, look again, his base attack speed and bonus perlevel are better!
Diana has 20% passive all time, with better base and per level.

Skarner, with the base attack speed nerf, will have the 5th lowest attack speed of the game, and considering he is a character based on attack speed, that feels horrible. I will say again, change him a little, right now ITS HORRIBLE.


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Cuxman

Senior Member

08-22-2013

I would really like to know why Skarner needs the atk speed nerf?

At the start we were told that the permaslow is toxic and while he looses that,
he gets buffed on other skills, so why the nerf?

As a champion with a balanced winning % and so low pick rate you cant say he is making to much damage right now.


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Locke64

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Scruffy, please please please answer these two questions:

1. Are you removing the cast time on E? At least some sort of acknowledgement here would be great, even if it's uncertain.

2. How often is Skarner actually autoattacking when ganking or chasing? I get the impression that you're only considering extended skirmishes and teamfights in stressing the value of the ramping AS boost. Please assure me that we still see its full effect when we aren't standing still in aa range. It's hard for me to imagine that we will.


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

08-22-2013
27 of 35 Riot Posts

The attack speed numbers on Q were actually much higher in the earlier iterations of the new kit. He was totally OP in our playtests, and dominating in every phase of the game.

Skarner's damage doesn't come from his auto attacks primarily. The reason, as many of you experienced Skarner players know, that Skarner scales very well with attack speed is because of the -1s (0.5 on minions) that it applies to his spell cooldowns.

The exact numbers aren't final, but the 1% nerf on his base attack speed is a direction that we tried out and liked. We thought it was much cooler for Skarner to have slightly lower base attack speed and potentially scale up to higher numbers once he has been fighting for a few seconds.

In his pre rework design, he has tremendous attack speed IF he can keep his shield up. This can create some optimization confusion for a few reasons:

-Should I use my shield to block damage? This is ideal use of the shield mitigation, but it will break.
-Should I use my shield when I am not taking damage for the attack speed? This is great for the attack speed buff, but the shield has provided me sub optimal mitigation.

Moving the attack speed to Q has remedied this confusing element of his kit.

Additionally, a lot of the feedback on Skarner was that he has a very feast or famine gameplay. In one case, Skarner is ahead and he has a huge attack speed buff that is further increasing his lead. In the other, Skarner is losing and he can't even use his attack speed buff because the shield is broken very quickly.

With this problem in mind, the change does intentionally lower Skarner's attack speed in the best case scenario (shield is up for full duration). But the changes also bring an increase to the average attack speed and lower the standard deviation.

I'd like to continue to discuss the merits and problems with the proposed changes, and I have been seriously considering every argument made. Also, I don't have any exact dates for when he will be on the PBE yet, but I will let you know as soon as I find out.

Edit: The E still has it's old cast time, but it has extended range and a slow so if you hit, you can easily reach the target.


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Thank you RiotScruffy


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sleepisdeath

Senior Member

08-22-2013

@RiotScruffy I'm very pleased about your changes for Skarner. I had a phase were i really loved to play Skarner as a jungler and i think the changes will help him a lot to eliminate the problems his current kit has.