Skarner, I miss your kind

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Mimiron

Junior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuxman View Post
Just ignore all the reasons why this is a nerf.

In ganks and in a teamfight you need your speed instant and the time you need to get some atk speed is just too long,
so what dos this new Skarner bring into a teamfight where he has no more spam able slow, is weaker in instant grabbing enemies who are out of position and has lower dps if the fight is not going to let him attack for 20 seconds?
I can't think of a reason a non-primary damage dealer needs instant attack speed.

I don't think you've ever played Skarner, even once. His ult is better now and getting a few Qs off takes no time at all.


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Cuxman

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimiron View Post
I can't think of a reason a non-primary damage dealer needs instant attack speed.

I don't think you've ever played Skarner, even once. His ult is better now and getting a few Qs off takes no time at all.
So all primary damage dealer just let you come to them and grab you without speed?
As a tank he just lost the thing that made him useful.
And last but not least, Skarner is NOT overpowered right now, so why is it ok to take things from him and replace them with a weaker version?

Ps.
To get 3 Qs takes ca 9 seconds so you have an average atk speed bonus of 16% for the first 9 seconds.
It just takes long to get close to the 50% he has now, even if you say he has them for only 3 seconds.


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuxman View Post
So all primary damage dealer just let you come to them and grab you without speed?

Ok...how does moving ATTACK speed to Q make him unable to speed up and grab an enemy?

Quote:
As a tank he just lost the thing that made him useful.

And what is that?


Quote:
And last but not least, Skarner is NOT overpowered right now, so why is it ok to take things from him and replace them with a weaker version?

You think this is weak?


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Mimiron

Junior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuxman View Post
So all primary damage dealer just let you come to them and grab you without speed?
As a tank he just lost the thing that made him useful.
And last but not least, Skarner is NOT overpowered right now, so why is it ok to take things from him and replace them with a weaker version?

Ps.
To get 3 Qs takes ca 9 seconds so you have an average atk speed bonus of 16% for the first 9 seconds.
It just takes long to get close to the 50% he has now, even if you say he has them for only 3 seconds.
Based on the average time a lane gank lasts, his slow is a buff. Especially since you don't need 2 Qs to get it off.

If you're in range to Q, you're getting autoattacks, it does not take 9 seconds to get 3 Qs off.

He's even tankier now with his shield than he used to be. Higher AP ratio and base strength.

His ult is back to working the way it was first.

Nothing is nerfed. His old attack speed lasted less than three seconds in a team fight, so I'll take 5 seconds of ramp-up for permanent attack speed.

Why is math so hard for all these Skarner players?


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Cuxman

Senior Member

08-22-2013

No, he dos not need instant atk speed, he needs instant movement speed.
And yes I think all this together is much weaker than he is right now.
The reasons for that are 2 posts over Scuffys last post.


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siiphon

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I see some comments about how moving the attack speed from W to Q is a nerf. From what we have seen (and what we intended) this is a buff to his consistency and a slight buff in overall stats.

The old W gave 30/35/40/45/50% while his shield was up (0-6s).

The new Q gives 4/5/6/7/8% per stack up to 12/15/18/21/24% max.
Obviously I haven't tested this so take my opinion for what it's worth--those numbers seem pretty low? Even though 24% is a fair number, having to wait for it to stack up to that makes it seem kind of weak. Personally I would like to see the same or slightly lower stack percentages but a much, much higher cap. Such that he becomes godly in very extended trades. I think that would be a fun, unique mechanic that wouldn't be too overwhelming considering he has to stay in very close range to you for a very long time to get it up that high. For numbers I was thinking 48/60/72/84/96% which is obviously extreme on paper, but with nerfs to the duration before it expires and maybe the cooldown I think it could be cool, fun, and generally engaging


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Mimiron

Junior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuxman View Post
No, he dos not need instant atk speed, he needs instant movement speed.
And yes I think all this together is much weaker than he is right now.
The reasons for that are 2 posts over Scuffys last post.
Hecarim's ramp-up works out fine for him. This is not a new concept. He has more movement speed now, too.

As for the post you've mentioned, that person is as bad at critical thinking as you are. And I've already answered it all.

Attack speed change is a buff. Period. The buff to the shield is also in the form of increased AP ratio not just base power.

And most important of all: these numbers are not final. Stop talking about the numbers like the champion is already released. That's what's most annoying about everyone whining so hard. 90% of these posts are people just whining. Wait at LEAST until this kit is on the PBE before you post any more QQ posts and bog down the conversation so Scruffy has to work his way through to find the actual constructive posts about the mechanics of his kit, not just crying about the numbers that aren't even final.

You all act like you've never seen a WIP testing process before. jfc. Please stop.


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Lore Master

Junior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I see some comments about how moving the attack speed from W to Q is a nerf. From what we have seen (and what we intended) this is a buff to his consistency and a slight buff in overall stats.

The old W gave 30/35/40/45/50% while his shield was up (0-6s).

The new Q gives 4/5/6/7/8% per stack up to 12/15/18/21/24% max.

There are a few reasons why the attack speed on Q has been more consistent and powerful for Skarner.

-Skarner players level Q before W typically, gaining the attack speed earlier in the game. This is also great for his jungle clear times, and early lane dominance (if he's laning).

-The attack speed buff is no longer reliant on his shield. In late game fights or duels, Skarner's shield was only up for ~3s. 24% attack speed all the time is stronger than 50% attack speed for 3s out of every 18s.

I'm glad you all are holding these changes to a high standard. I too want to see Skarner back into common play.
This is actually not true. As a Skarner jungler i valued the W far more wince it gave me atkspd/ shield/ movespeed. Any Skarner wirth his salt leveling up his Q beofre his W was short changing himself.

The nerf to the amount of atkspeed on his Q based on the W will be a large nerf. It means a slower more unhealthy jungle in all ways i can mathcraft it. You're either trading sustainability for a weaker overall haste or you're take a MUCH weaker haste for a better overall shield.

I'm really skeptical that these changes are going to prove influential enough to make Skarner anything more then the marginal pick he already is. That makes me sad because he is one of my favorite champions.

I really think these changed need to be sent to the PBE sooner rather then later because your internal testers may not have the breadth of use in Skarner that a more wide audience has playing him.

A buff is not a buff if it only feels stronger if you paly him a specific way as opposed to that same way previously. That is just creating less flexibility for a champ. You want to fix Skarner, then make sure that he feels stronger based on ANY buildpath with ANY skill path vs the old Skarner.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimiron View Post
Wait at LEAST until this kit is on the PBE before you post any more QQ posts and bog down the conversation so Scruffy has to work his way through to find the actual constructive posts about the mechanics of his kit, not just crying about the numbers that aren't even final.
When it reaches PBE testing, that means that the kit concepts have been essentially finalized, and all that is really being changed is numbers and bugfixing. That's what a beta server does. If someone doesn't like the kit proposals being made (like removing permaslow), then this is exactly the time when they need to speak up.


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I see some comments about how moving the attack speed from W to Q is a nerf. From what we have seen (and what we intended) this is a buff to his consistency and a slight buff in overall stats.

The old W gave 30/35/40/45/50% while his shield was up (0-6s).

The new Q gives 4/5/6/7/8% per stack up to 12/15/18/21/24% max.

There are a few reasons why the attack speed on Q has been more consistent and powerful for Skarner.

-Skarner players level Q before W typically, gaining the attack speed earlier in the game. This is also great for his jungle clear times, and early lane dominance (if he's laning).

-The attack speed buff is no longer reliant on his shield. In late game fights or duels, Skarner's shield was only up for ~3s. 24% attack speed all the time is stronger than 50% attack speed for 3s out of every 18s.

I'm glad you all are holding these changes to a high standard. I too want to see Skarner back into common play.
This "All the time" claim is very dubious. If the new Q mechanic worked like Rageblade then yes, you could conceivably keep yourself buffed 23% (don't forget the 1% nerf to his base stats) "all the time" as you claim... as long as you have mana at least.

But the requirement that you must hit an actual target with his Q means that you must be able to apply the Q stack to a valid target every 5.9 seconds in order to keep yourself buffed, right?

This is no trivial matter. If you are jungling and decide that you need to run to a lane for some reason, how long does it take? Can you get from wolves to bot lane in less than 6 seconds?
And what about those times when you need to wait for the right moment to jump out of the bush or run from around the corner? All of those moments have now been nerfed pretty hard because at soon at that 6th second goes by, your attack speed buff is gone and you'll need to hit a target with Q 3 times to get it back, right?

You state a clear problem in your analysis: In late game team fights, Skarner's shield usually only lasts 3 seconds and he loses his AS buff. Ok, there is a problem. So instead of coming to the conclusion that Skarner's AS buffs needs to last longer (thought higher shield durability, additional resistances, or allowing the buffs to remain in some capacity even when the shield pops) you decide to nerf his base AS by 1% and move the buff to another ability that requires 3 casts, 6 seconds, presence of a target and triple the mana costs to get half the attack speed benefit. Please don't read that as confrontational, I'm just trying to understand what is going on and accurately represent the facts, please correct me if I get those facts wrong.