Skarner, I miss your kind

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Locke64

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikohoness View Post
A ranged slow will not be refreshed by Skarner's passive unless Skarner is in melee range and actually able to make melee attacks
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxSylphxx View Post
What is 'toxic', and counterplay
Speaking of 'toxic', I find it telling that you think Skarner's permaslow was frustrating to play against. I fail to believe your Q motivation origin story about the lack of counterplay, when in fact the counterplay is very specifically and visibly staying out of melee range of the angry scorpion (aint no burden of knowledge there!), given how kiteable Skarner is. Then you go on to list how kiteable Skarner is as a key point of irritation to Skarner players! You're removing the counterplay by giving him a ranged slow. Then you're removing all his power because you've given him a free way to close the gap. Skarner's permaslow HAD counterplay, and you just removed both the counterplay, and the slow itself!
Scruffy, I get that you're seeing "Most frustrating aspect of playing as Skarner: He's too kiteable" and "Most frustrating aspect of playing against Skarner: It's nearly impossible to escape his permaslow" and drawing the logical conclusion of improving his gap-closing power while introducing opportunities to escape his slow. But ask the same questions again post-rework and you'll just get the opposite responses, except now Skarner is no longer a unique and cohesive character.

The whole point of Skarner is to stay in melee range 100% of the time. His passive depends on this. His Q depends on this. His R depends on this. As xxSylphxx explained, by buffing his gap-closing abilities, you're removing the most reliable counter-play to this fundamental playstyle. And as Bikohoness explained, by nerfing his sticking power you're dissolving the synergy between his passive and the rest of his abilities.

Getting stuck by his permaslow is only frustrating when you overlook the fact that you let Skarner get in melee range in the first place. Getting kited is only frustrating when you overlook the huge reward of ultimately getting into melee range. It's not worth ripping apart Skarner's core to fix these "problems".

In addition to all the numbers nerfs that have been pointed out already (of which I find the increased mana dependency thanks to E now being required most interesting, but that's beside the point) you're also nerfing his passive by not letting him stay in melee range as much as he currently can. You're nerfing his AS boost more than you think for the same reason.

When thinking about your first question, what's most enjoyable about Skarner, I keep switching my answer between Impale, Crystal Slash, and Energize. But in reality what truly defines the enjoyability of Skarner is the artful combination of these three abilities (and W). Please keep Skarner in melee range.


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Best Glitches NA

Member

08-21-2013

There's huge obsession with the Riot staff lately on counterplay mechanics. I understand the importance of it but not ever champion will be equipped with the mechanics to escape every possible problem with every possible answer.

What there needs to be more of is team promotion and forethought in creating team compositions. If Skarner gets into range to your adc and sticks to them, the team ought to peel, not just slap a tool on the adc or hinder the offending champion from continuing his onslaught, in this case heavily limiting Skarner's wealth of sticking power. He already has to "ramp up" his ability to slow enemies.

The direction is nice and fun, but the unique sticking power was destroyed all because of this fantasy of "counterplay." sometimes things will just happen and if you or your team can't figure out how to solve it than the frag is deserved.

I still like the idea of adding a passive to the new iteration of "every x hits poisons the enemy, slowing for X for X seconds. Can help him still stick on someone, but still very awkwardly than before.


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Honorzeal

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Not to derail the debate above my post, but I would like to add a quick opinion about this latest change update, mainly concerning his R.

One the biggest trademarks of Skarner is his ultimate, in the sense that he "suppresses" his target and has the ability to drag said suppressed target where-ever our crystal scorpion chooses. Changing this key trademark into a non-mobile suppression (Malz's ult comes to mind) is not something I would ever want to see for this unique champion (and this is coming from a summoner who has played Skarner only a handful of times).

- - -

To refocus the current discussion at hand, I am inclined to agree with Locke64's post entirely and would like to echo his and Best Glitches NA's posts. If the idea of Skarner is to keep himself within melee range, he should be rewarded for getting himself within melee range, instead of trying to get in position for a ranged "poke o' slow." What makes Skarner so powerful *is* his "sticking" power. If you're looking for a solution, I believe it would be best found in adding the passive of "every x hits poisons the enemy, slowing for X for X seconds" (as mentioned by Best Glitches NA). It seems like a better solution, imo, then taking away his core strengths and slapping on a ranged slow for an attempt of a gap closer.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honorzeal View Post
Not to derail the debate above my post, but I would like to add a quick opinion about this latest change update, mainly concerning his R.

One the biggest trademarks of Skarner is his ultimate, in the sense that he "suppresses" his target and has the ability to drag said suppressed target where-ever our crystal scorpion chooses. Changing this key trademark into a non-mobile suppression (Malz's ult comes to mind) is not something I would ever want to see for this unique champion (and this is coming from a summoner who has played Skarner only a handful of times).
Such a change has not been proposed. The most recent change to the ultimate doesn't root Skarner, it roots his target. The intention is that by rooting the target immediately, it will be more difficult for them to flash before the suppression and pull begin, which will decrease the number of times people flash out of Skarner's ultimate. There is no downside to this change. It only makes Skarner better.


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Khmera

Senior Member

08-21-2013

RiotScruffy your idea of a decaying slow every other Q was actually a good one (I mean the spell could have a little longer cool-down). This is indeed a great loss. I enjoy a slow on E but, it doesn't have to be a strong slow at all, just a slow on impact. Also I would like to know how his healing works on Exoskeleton?

I know you want some counter play but, when you are going 1 v 1 with a gap-closer who also has flash, I think his E alone (considering its width) is unreliable. What I'm saying is that if Q had it's slow then you can probably initially leave a decaying slow on them as they blink away, then have the option of chasing into another Q then Q (The third Q would slow) again or shoot out your E to just briefly slow them.

Not gonna be purely negative though. I think his ult is beyond fixed now, the cooldown on Exoskeleton was much needed. The nice mana reduction is great, but I think it's just that each ability outside of Skarner's ult is making me worry about his overall sustain, and ability to pursue and/or gank.


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Khmera

Senior Member

08-21-2013

I do like my Skarner with the ability to heal himself. I know you do too RiotScruffy as you stated before.Maybe it doesn't have to be a heal, but maybe a health regen like Volibear's passive. Maybe using Skarner's shield will grant him increasing movement and health regen as time passes. (along with a shield of course) This way as Skarner is moving between lanes he can use this ability to regain health before he ganks another lane? Just a thought. I really like Skarner, an I think his self sustain is amazing.

This way Skarner can heal himself while his barrier is up, so that he can't easily be stopped of healing. This allows some counter play. Because I imagine that when his shield is destroyed his regen and movement speed decay over two seconds after his shield breaks. (and it allows him some extra healing but in a weaker version after his shield is gone for 2 seconds)

I got this idea from the Howling Abyss' new item The Orb of Winter. Where you want your shield and benefits to persist, and be rewarded for being able to dodge spells so that you can come back around and close in. (besides the longer the shield is up the better the benefits right?)


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KillAlQaeda5871

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all. This thread has been so incredibly helpful, you all have been having huge impact on this Skarner rework so far. We are getting more and more happy with each new version and I wanted to provide an update of where we are at. Skarner feels like a much more reliable pick with these changes, and I think he will gain a lot of his old glory back when you all have a chance to play him.

Overall, his ability to engage in ganks, mid game skirmishes, and late game team fights is increased. He is still able to brawl and 1v1 very well and his jungle clear times are slightly improved. The E is an essential part of his kit now, and it has opened up a lot of interesting new plays that Skarner can make. One of the most important things is that, for us old Skarner players, he still feels like the Skarner we know and love.

Full changelist:

Base Attack speed lowered by 1%

Crystal Slash (Q)
-Mana cost reduced from 20/22/24/26/28 to 16/18/20/22/24
-When target is hit, gives skarner an attack speed buff for 6s that stacks up to 3 times 4/5/6/7/8%
-Slow removed (moved to E)

Exoskeleton (W)
-Attack speed component removed (moved to Q)
-Cooldown lowered from 18s to 14s
-Max movepseed increased to 24/28/32/36/40% and ramps up over 3s
-Duration remains at 6s
-Shield value increased from 70/115/160/205/250 to 75/125/175/225/280
-Shield AP ratio increased from 0.6 to 0.8

Fracture (E)
-Mana cost reduced from 50/55/60/65/70 to 40/45/50/55/60
-Heal removed (power moved into W shield)
-Targets hit are slowed by 30/35/40/45/50% for 2.5s
-Missile range increased 800->1000
-Missile width reduced 120->90
-Missile speed reduced 1800->1700

Impale (R)
-Impale now roots targeted champion during the windup animation

Anything not mentioned in the changelist is the same. Numbers are still not locked down so don't sweat the small details.

-Team Skarner
So his current AS steroid on his shield is 30/35/40/45/50 so if his new AS steroid on his Q is 4/5/6/7/8 and can only stack up to 3 times that is a more of a nerf than anything on top of nerfing his slow i mean common increase the % or the amount of stacks he can have and increase the time the stacks last. After reading that it's looking more like a nerf whether intentional or not the numbers don't lie.
I am satisfied with the shield buff but it does not make up for a level 1 minus 18% (4x3stacks=12) attack speed and minus 26% at level 5 thats a big difference. Maybe a short video of his current play test 1st jungle clear times would awesome to alleviate the worries of us current Skarner players.
New is good but only if the Q AS buff is fixed.
The new ult....i love you for fixing its as you said it 100% "Awesome town!"

PS
So as it stands currently alot top of lane Skarner's are not happy because of you getting rid of the heal on his E and im sure once more jungle Skarner's notice the math on his AS buff they will be to.


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Glomkettle

Junior Member

08-21-2013

Skarner was the first champion I ever really enjoyed playing. I saved up 6300 IP playing bot games with free week champions to buy him before anyone else. Since reaching level 30 I haven't played him quite as much, but he's still a very special champion to me, and it makes me really happy to see the changes that are being made.

However, I do have one concern that I don't think I've seen addressed here.
The live version of his e has a ton of issues - mana inefficiency, redundancy of the heal when his shield exists, awkward triggering - but only one of those issues could remain in the new version. If it hasn't been changed, it would greatly weaken its effectiveness as a crowd control ability and make me seriously worried about Skarner's playability. The most important question I can possibly think to ask about the Skarner rework is this: Does his new e still interrupt movement?


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GalvornScorpion

Junior Member

08-22-2013

I like playing Skarner, and I'm just glad he's getting the attention he deserves, so that he can be more playable.

I am cautiously optimistic about the changes. His E's loss of healing seems worth the buff to the shield, so it might now be possible to have one that can take a single tower shot without breaking. To me, the loss of the healing merely reinforces the need to buy some lifesteal/spellvamp, which honestly I was doing before anyway as it was too small, too infrequent, and too unreliable(allies and minions killing marked minions, enemy champions running away, etc.) to be worthwhile.

Skarner's E is now critical to chasing down foes, which could be good or bad, and with his R seemingly fixed (but is it root stopping, say, Cleanse or Quicksilver Sash from working?), it gathers my curiosity. To reiterate Glomkettle's question does it interrupt Skarner's movement? Does it have a cast time? Does it still pass through and affect all units (till it reaches its max range)?

Also, I realize that this is more of a tweaking than a full overhaul, and thus Skarner's animations etc. won't change. I realize and am grateful for the fact that keeping to the old ability concepts elimiates the need for time and labor intensive animation changes, allowing Skarner to improve sooner, rather than later. I realize that Skarner's E is pretty much his sole innate poke capability. But am I really the only one who feels that the ranged blast on this melee oriented champion feels out of place (Honest question)? Or is it just due to my frustration at missing the occasional skill shot?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the changes in action. Thank you very much, RiotScuffy, for all of your hard work on this deserving champion, and this great game.

P.S. I just noticed that no one in the entire thread seemed to mention this idea, but, seeing how Skarner IS a scorpion, maybe one of his abilities should have a damage over time "poison"-esqe component. Yes, I realize this is coming a bit late, but, food for thought.


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Skarquesa

Junior Member

08-22-2013

From what I've seen so far, these changes are getting more negative responses than positive ones. Most people are glad that he's being changed but the changes are horrible. The unique thing about Skarner was to be able to stick to people. If your talking about counter-play, flash or gap-closers are couterplays so there has always been counterplay.

I really hope these changes don't get pushed to the PBE.