Skarner, I miss your kind

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Baron Perenolde

Senior Member

08-20-2013

I feel like my favorite crystal scorpion is in great hands so far. Thank you for taking such careful steps in preserving his gameplay, Scruffy.


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke64 View Post
-Having to re-apply the slow to "catch up" doesn't sound like it synergizes well with his passive and Q.
-How frequently is he actually autoattacking while chasing?
-Does he maintain full Q stacks between Es?
-Have you removed E's cast time?
I agree, Skarner's passive provides zero benefit if he is not in auto-attack range.

Another thing that seems to be overlooked is that with these changes he now needs to cast 2 spells instead of one in order to stick to his target.
Current Skarner: 28 mana every 2-3 seconds in order to stick to his target
Rework Skarner: 24 mana every 2-3 seconds in order to maintain the attackspeed buff + 60 mana every 5-10 seconds in order to slow the target.

To summarize the changes in another way::
Amount of slow applied to the target: buffed from 40% -> 50%
Amount of time the target is slowed: buffed from 2.0s -> 2.5s
Amount of time between applications of the slow: nerfed from 1.5s -> 7.5s
Mana cost in order to stick to the target (and do damage): nerfed from 28 -> 84 mana

Attack-speed buff: nerfed from 50% -> 23% (24% from stacked Q, 1% from global nerf)
Mana cost to get full attack-speed buff: nerfed from 60 -> 72 mana (more if you ever miss a Q)
Duration of attack-speed buff: buffed from 6s -> unlimited (providing you have infinite mana and targets within 350)

Movespeed buff:
On initial cast: nerfed by ~10%
1s after cast: nerfed by ~5%
2s after cast: buffed by ~5%
3s after cast: buffed by ~10%
4th-6th seconds: buffed by 10%
Cooldown: buffed by 4s (18s -> 14s)

Shield:
buffed by 5/10/15/20/30, which equates to 1/10th of one auto-attack by any ADC at almost any level.
Cooldown: buffed by 4s (18s -> 14s)

Self-heal:
nerfed from 90 base + 30% of AP to zero.
Assume current Skarner has no AP except for Sheen (+25)
Assume duel with 1 target that lasts less than 10 seconds.
- Current Skarner would get 97 health during that duel
- New Skarner's shield would absorb 50 more points of damage
-- Net result: New Skarner would end the duel with 47 less health
Assume teamfight with 4 targets (champions or minions) that lasts longer than 12 seconds
- Current Skarner would get 182 health during that fight
- New Skarner's shield would would absorb 50 more points of damage
-- Net result: New Skarner would end the teamfight with 132 less health

I understand that internal testing is yielding a vague notion of "feels better and more dynamic", but the number sure look like this is some pretty serious nerfs all around (lower AS, higher mana costs, less sticking power, zero sustain, less tanky)

Is there some aspect of these numbers that I'm not understanding?


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestergrog View Post
The rework is giving him a ranged slow with a slightly longer duration, and it still gets refreshed from Skarner's passive, so he won't need to keep enemies so close anymore. Coupled with the fact that his shield value is higher and harder to remove, he'll be faster too
Do you realize the contradiction here:
A ranged slow will not be refreshed by Skarner's passive unless Skarner is in melee range and actually able to make melee attacks

So he will need to keep enemies close even more that before.
- currently he just needs to be within 350 and spam Q
- after rework, he will need to be in melee range, making as many AA's as he possibly can in order to shave off enough cooldown that he can slow the target again before they blink away

Also, his shield is not harder to break (unless you build a lot of AP). The difference is 1/10th of one auto attack from any ADC at any level.


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IcyOps

Member

08-21-2013

This is horrendous!

If this reworks goes out I will be severely disappointed in Riot.
It has been said from time and time again that Skarner doesn't need that many buffs, just a few tweaks.
You are butchering this champion.

Q - Crystal Slash
-Mana cost reduced from 20/22/24/26/28 to 16/18/20/22/24

This is a buff that is enough for Q, going further than this is useless.

-When target is hit, gives skarner an attack speed buff for 6s that stacks up to 3 times 4/5/6/7/8%

What will a tank do with 24% Attack Speed? This is USELESS, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU REMOVED A.SPEED FROM HIS W

-Slow removed (moved to E)

His Q will feel so useless if the slow is removed. There was nothing toxic about permaslow, idk where people got that from. An AoE slow was the only thing he had in teamfights other than ulting.

You are transitioning his Q into a damage ability like Shyvana's W, my question is why? Why is the AS buff SO LOW if you want him to be a fighter like her.

Exoskeleton (W)
-Attack speed component removed (moved to Q)
-Cooldown lowered from 18s to 14s

Now we have the sustained AS buff from Q but it is less than half at max level. You guys use this to justify a lower CD, that can be credited for, but the loss of power (24% AS, 1% base) is eminent. I don't see how you why you want to make this champion Shyvana.

-Max movepseed increased to 24/28/32/36/40% and ramps up over 3s

Ramp up? What is this? Hecarim? Rammus? If I want to play a champion that moves really fast for a short period of time I will pick them. For the viability, my question is what MS buff does his W give him at the start. But seriously some people HATE this playstyle (myself included).

-Duration remains at 6s

Doesn't matter

-Shield value increased from 70/115/160/205/250 to 75/125/175/225/280

It is good to see that he is given a stronger shield, but at what cost? He completely LOSES the heal on his E. At max level the shield is given 30hp to compensate, at max level his E healed 90 hp with one tick to a max of 180. It wasnt that hard to proc it especially with sunfire or if the target was right beside you.

-Shield AP ratio increased from 0.6 to 0.8

Doesn't matter

Fracture (E)
-Mana cost reduced from 50/55/60/65/70 to 40/45/50/55/60

Doesn't matter

-Heal removed (power moved into W shield)

Refer above to the post about W shield increase. It was weak, but it didn't justify only 30 hp increase to his W.

-Targets hit are slowed by 30/35/40/45/50% for 2.5s
-Missile range increased 800->1000
-Missile width reduced 120->90
-Missile speed reduced 1800->1700

Much harder to land due to width decrease, yes his range is increased but the original range was enough. The slow is horrendous, this ability has 3x the CD of Q but only has a slow increase of 10% for an extra .5s? IDC if it's ranged this is not justified.


Impale (R)
-Impale now roots targeted champion during the windup animation

This is the only good aspect of the Skarner rework, and it probably was all that he needed.

Base Attack speed lowered by 1%
You are nerfing his jungling, his teamfight, and essentially everything about him since he revolves around autos and giving a 24% "perma" buff on his Q? Haha nice one.


To recap, Skarner needs his slow on his Q, increasing it by 10% and increasing the duration by .5s does not justify it being ranged and on a cd thats 3x longer. The attack speed buff on his Q is good, but WAY too weak, especially with his base AS nerfed by 1%. My suggestion for that is don't be afraid, either give it 50% on his Q coupled with the slow, or give that 50% to his W. His W shield buffs are good but the ramp up is not good for his playstyle. E is not justified at all. R buffs would be enough to bring him into viability. If Skarner doesn't get his perma slow, he will get kited to infinity and beyond, and it will be even more frustrating to play Skarner.

Nothing I see here is unique other than the ulti. I thought Skarner rework was going to be like Sejuani's core thematics are there, just a few buffs in unique ways.

TLDR
Revert all this fancy sugar coated "buffs" (this includes the E) and just implement the R buff, mana cost buffs, and perhaps the W shield buff.


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popeyepoop1

Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CracatoaX View Post
@Scruffy, when will this be on the PBE?

Also, why are you lowering his base attack speed, when your weakening the attack speed he gets from abilities? He used to get 50% from his w, now he only gets 24% at max stacks from q?

I know the attack speed will be on more because it doesn't require the shield to be up, but 24% still seems a little low. Maybe raise it to 10% per stack?
I agree with this immensely. Seriously, 4% for stack for one point? 12% attack speed is almost nothing especially if you are decreasing his base attack speed. I understand that yes, it is almost permanent but in reality a tank that gets 24% attack speed, that you have to stack up, it pretty lame. You can't really compare other champions but just for some comparison.

Diana gets 20% passively. Just 4% under Skarners.

Lee Sin gets 40% for two auto attacks after a spell cast, which isn't hard to do.

Kog'maw gets 30% passively.

Udyr gets 30% for switching stances 3 times.

J4 gets 22% passively, and another 22% for his whole team.

Vi gets 30% with ONE rank in her skill after hitting someone 3 times. Skarner would have to hit 3 times and he gets 24% at rank 5? She even scales up to 50%.

I feel like Skarner is getting skimped on quite a bit of attack speed. Especially if the 1% nerf to his base attack speed then this 24% attack speed won't even be worth as much as before. Sure, he'll be a bit faster but he's still melee!


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Velnaz

Junior Member

08-21-2013

The retooling of champions that remove the original flavor of the champion do not push players to pick him up again. I don't post on the forums very often because I never feel really strongly about changes. Counter play is the drum that is always beaten to justify major shifts in a champions kit. Yes he had a perma slow. If perma slow is no good for counterplay why does ashe exist?


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ALargeBear

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Its probably getting pretty late in his redevelopment to consider something like this, but could it be considered to have a lasting effect lay on the ground from fracture momentarily? Something like, Fracture opens a crack in the earth, and enemies who aren't hit directly by Fracture but walk over the crack are slowed by only 50% of the slow value? This would add some really neat gameplay to Skarner, but may possibly be too much of an overload with the changes hes already got going on. I'd just like Fracture to really feel like Skarner is causing major damage to the terrain like the ability suggests, since live Skarner's Fracture doesn't really look like anything. If anything, at least visually it should feel powerful and have 'opening the earth' particles (but for all I know he's getting something like this already and I'm just rambling at 5 am).


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Crowcide

Senior Member

08-21-2013

I understand this new play pattern is more interesting and healthier for the game. But it also seems like a nerf, which is the last thing skarner needs.

What does he do better with this new kit?


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra Horakhty View Post
I'm not saying it's a bad rework. Just for me, personally, I hate the new playstyle. For me, the permaslow on his Q was iconic, so I thought it would stay. I'm sure plenty of people will love the new Skarner, but as a long time skarner player, I think he would have been just fine with ONLY the root on ulti cast. That alone would have made him just fine. Like I said, though, I'm sure plenty will love him. And that's fine. I'm just never going to touch him again.
You know, you could pick up Frozen Fist, which is probably a decent buy on him anyway, and still maintain your AoE permaslow that is 'iconic' to Skarner, in your opinion. Just some food for thought.


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Crowcide

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
You know, you could pick up Frozen Fist, which is probably a decent buy on him anyway, and still maintain your AoE permaslow that is 'iconic' to Skarner, in your opinion. Just some food for thought.
Would be different. You'd have to be in AA range, wouldn't be aoe, and it's still a huge lost because it comes with a substantial gold investment.