Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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oldRakdos

Senior Member

08-20-2013

bye E heal, and permaslow, still i will try the new skarner


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Ra Horakhty

Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draciusen View Post
And the mana costs. I'm sure everybody and their grandma has trouble managing Skarner's mana costs.
Grabbing a philo stone made his mana costs more than manageable. Well, as a solo laner anyway. Just make every cast count.


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LiketheCar

Junior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Yes, I'll clarify because this is in many people's opinions the most significant loss to his kit. There are a few major gains to the new slow pattern compared to the old.

-Skarner is still able to get to and stick with a target. This is key to Skarner's ability to play the game (as a melee) and we definitely would not remove this from him.

-Targets are not slowed permanently without any means of escape. The new slow will give him about 50% slow uptime without much cooldown reduction. This allows for both Skarner and his target to make meaningful plays. A target with a moveblock has to be smart about using it or Skarner will be able to reapply slow or catch up. Skarner players can also be smart about coordinating their slow with other CC from their team or even with a slow->ult->slow combo by themselves.

-The new slow application has more interest for both Skarner and the target. The slow on a line skillshot nuke adds a lot of thought/skill to Skarner play and feels really good to hit. New opportunities of when and how to use the slow are opened up and it gives the needed variety to his kit. Skarner is taking some risk to cast the slow, but if he lands the skillshot there is an appropriate reward.

From the many people internally that we have had playtest the new Skarner, they all seem to agree that this pattern is more interesting and fun. I hope you feel the same way when you have the chance to play him.
Thank you for the Response.

I can definitely see the logic in what you're saying. It's going to add a lot of diversity to his playstyle, but also reward a strong skill level to Skarner. With the slight width reduc on the E, I worry it might be a little harder, but it doesn't seem to be a significant difference. I have a lot of faith that this rework is going to be beneficial, and I am looking forward to trying him.


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Locke64

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Having to re-apply the slow to "catch up" doesn't sound like it synergizes well with his passive and Q.

How frequently is he actually autoattacking while chasing?

Does he maintain full Q stacks between Es?

Have you removed E's cast time?

Does the root on R feel as good or better than removing the windup time altogether?


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Vacus

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
From the many people internally that we have had playtest the new Skarner, they all seem to agree that this pattern is more interesting and fun. I hope you feel the same way when you have the chance to play him.
For what it's worth, the reason I hate this is because it is the same as every other melee champion.


Skarner with permaslow is unique. Skarner with 50% uptime slow is incredibly generic. Just about every melee champion follows the pattern of use slow/gapcloser/cc move ->enemy escapes temporarily ->catch up again. Skarner previously used the pattern of get in melee -> stay in melee; the enemy counterplay was to stay out of melee in the first place (which was far from impossible to do). Now his pattern is identical to every other melee and the uniqueness of his kit is gone.

Sure, his ult is still nice, and fixing the bugs with it so it's actually usable is a great change. But his ult alone is not enough to give him a fun and unique play pattern; his ult isn't really that different from Warwick's, Malzahar's, or Gragas' (yes, Gragas'; Gragas' ult displaces the enemy and CCs them during the travel). It's the rest of these champion's kits that makes them totally different play experiences, from both each other and from Skarner. An ult alone is not enough.


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Agnostic Priest

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Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Yes, I'll clarify because this is in many people's opinions the most significant loss to his kit. There are a few major gains to the new slow pattern compared to the old.

-Skarner is still able to get to and stick with a target. This is key to Skarner's ability to play the game (as a melee) and we definitely would not remove this from him.

-Targets are not slowed permanently without any means of escape. The new slow will give him about 50% slow uptime without much cooldown reduction. This allows for both Skarner and his target to make meaningful plays. A target with a moveblock has to be smart about using it or Skarner will be able to reapply slow or catch up. Skarner players can also be smart about coordinating their slow with other CC from their team or even with a slow->ult->slow combo by themselves.

-The new slow application has more interest for both Skarner and the target. The slow on a line skillshot nuke adds a lot of thought/skill to Skarner play and feels really good to hit. New opportunities of when and how to use the slow are opened up and it gives the needed variety to his kit. Skarner is taking some risk to cast the slow, but if he lands the skillshot there is an appropriate reward.

From the many people internally that we have had playtest the new Skarner, they all seem to agree that this pattern is more interesting and fun. I hope you feel the same way when you have the chance to play him.
Throw in a passive tail poison attack that slows after x attacks. That would be so awesome and fitting for a scorpion! Its not too late!


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MagentaMarlin

Junior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic Priest View Post
Throw in a passive tail poison attack that slows after x attacks. That would be so awesome and fitting for a scorpion! Its not too late!
That's a pretty good idea. Maybe even a little dmg over time.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Overall, changes seem good. One concern remains. With the reduction to his base attack speed, the necessity of stacking his attack speed, and the lower total attack speed steroid he has, it seems that he will have less upfront damage, but more damage over time because the damage is constant. In addition to this, Skarner's chasing has been somewhat nerfed when he is chasing someone by himself, meaning he will need that upfront damage even more because he is likely to have a shorter window to put damage on someone before they have a chance to escape. Has there been conflict between these two factors that may led to any problems in his play? It seems like for chasing purposes, he has significantly less damage during the time when he will have the most opportunity to do damage, because his enemies have more escape potential after the slow wears off and the shield breaks, which is the point where this Skarner begins to have more damage potential than live Skarner.

Overall though, this seems like a lot of good changes. Would like to see a higher uptime on the slow.


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Marksta

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Senior Member

08-20-2013

Ohh this is terrible, awful. I think the Skarner team needs to seriously re-evaluate what they've done to hit kit when his ultimate is factored out. In his current state he can still peel very well with his 100%slow even if doing an amazing flash pull isn't available. Now what is he with no ultimate? A guy who shields himself, and is able to slow occasionally and do pitiful damage in mid and late game. The current reason I'd say Skarner has less than ~4% popularity is QSS. QSS removes his ultimate from the game. It is at this point that his Crystal Slash is really freaking useful. Now all I can see is someone QSSing my slow I used to get to them and my ultimate all in one go. And that's going to be the end of Skarner's impact on any given fight. His damage is just pitiful and I don't see any corrections being made here. Ramp up attack speed? You're damn lucky if the entire team fight isn't over in 8 seconds to even get an auto in at your max buffed speed. The 50% attack speed on the old W is leagues better if doing damage is your goal because it's instant and it might give you the burst damage Skarner doesn't have to actually kill someone before they kill you or all of your team. Nobody currently builds attack speed on Skarner. Maybe, maybe a Wit's End is built but usually not. It just isn't useful as building tanky because Skarner's role is to throw out that permaslow and not die. Not to deal damage, because his potential for damage is just not there. It's tank or die. Damage Skarner is dead Skarner. AP Skarner is dead Skarner. Skarner without CC is worthless Skarner. Unless Impale is becoming a suppression then all these nerfs just to turn your double unreliable (miss, hit and get QSSed instantly) ultimate into a reliably unreliable ultimate is freaking worthless! Guaranteed hit, guaranteed QSS. Tell me you are doing something that you didn't write here because chasing around people with a self-stunning ranged slow you could miss with very easily is just ridiculous. You don't see Caitlyn or Maokai use their self inflicting slows in a chase because the slow rarely nets you much gain and missing it is absolute disaster. All in all, what I see here is a solution for a not-problem. I get that you want to remove this supposed 'uncounterable' permaslow that Skarner has but if it was so uncounterable, useful, good, then Skarner might actually be played some damn day. It is so freaking far from uncounterable with how many champs can just slap you with a slow, speed themselves, blink away or just walk into a minion and body block you away. Take it from a diamond Skarner main, this is not the way to bring him back to the scene.


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InquisitivePants

Junior Member

08-20-2013

Scruffy what about the skins?