Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Weggy

Junior Member

08-03-2013

I'm sorry for coming so late in the discussion (i'm from euw) but i just really want to say 1 point:

What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Its when his ult does start the animation and now everyone just flashes/ runs into a brush / does anything and my ult doesn't go off!
If i use my ult i want it to hit...and if the target escapes via flash/whatever i want him too pull backt o me like in the old times!
its just soooo frustrating seeing how the animation starts and the target is just...gone!


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Weggy

Junior Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicApple View Post
As long as you fix his R, to where it can be used reliably, and not have the "channel" broken by darn near anything - I'd be happy. Nothing worse than trying to ult something and them being able to move fast enough to break the tether and it stop the channel and make your ult feel completely worthless.

I didn't really understand why they changed it in the first place, I mean, it's an ultimate - if you want to wait until the very last minute when Skarner is 150 units next to you to try and disengage from it - chances are you deserve to be dragged away into the unknown. I always found it fun to ult Trist's jump, other people's flashes, it made the character feel unique. It really gave him that I'm going to stick on you like white on rice feel, and it worked - why he was picked tons in s2 and even saw competitive play.

TL;DR - Fix the ult (I want to grab Tristana during her jump )
thats exactly what i mean!


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Dr When

Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Another thing to keep in mind, Skarner has very low play rate and sub 50% win rate right now. There is no intention of nerfing him.
you say that but when i look at the olaf rework....


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Seigs

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Junior Member

08-03-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Using his ultimate.
Strong dueling capabilities.
Great presence around the map, as well as quick farm times in the jungle.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
With the introduction of QSS, if it gets late enough in the game, his entire niche ultimate can be cleansed.
Also with the introduction of many gap closing champions as well as the Iceborn Gauntlet, Skarner has become replaced as a go to jungler do to his unique capabilities being replaced by items and or other stronger champions.
Being kited around because flash is your only gap closer is also unfun.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
I'm never on the other side of this... but I'd assume knowing you're screwed when he's in ult range.
It used to be annoying for other players if they had a flash/jump and you'd be pulled away anyways but they changed this.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Any jungler with gap close immediately does Skarner's job better if they itemize to perma slow using Iceborn Gauntlet.
Any jungler with gap close and an initiation tool already does a better job at initiating than Skarner.


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SeiferXD

Member

08-03-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

A: Being able to neutralize the enemy threat with ulti.


• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

A: His many costs on spells are too heavy.. I also feel that Skarners "E" should persist a slow similar to Maokai's "Q".



• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

A: His ulti will always frustrate the person being pulled. i Feel that the ulti should do what its intended but pull for half the distance and add a small amount of bonus armor and mag res to skarner.


• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

A: The big problem is that Skarner has no cc aside from his ulti. So junglers like Zac, Nautilus, & Sejuani can be more helpful in fights.


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
I'd stop playing him. I don't really want this champion to have a hard gapcloser. What I want is to play someone who has to run up to his enemies, but is highly rewarded for doing so. I want to be one of the best duelists in the game. That's interesting. That's what I want when I play the scorpion. I don't want to be someone who blinks into the enemy team for intiation. That's not desirable.
<snip>
I'm sorry that you would stop playing him, but I think there are thousands of people that would start playing him (or pick him up again).

I really appreciate the feedback, and I think it is a worthy discussion.

There are several people who talk about Skarner being one of the best duelists in the game, but I honestly don't see it. Too many champs can slip away before Skarner can finish them off (Rengar, Khazix, Jax, Eve, Zed, Fizz and many others) Not to mention that they all build damage and penetration while Skarner is building tanky. It seems to me like the damage done TO Skarner is far more than he puts out in return, but maybe other people have better luck that I do.

I honestly don't think this change would instantly make him OP. The range on his E is only 600, and I'm sure riot would nerf it to something like 400 if a change like this was made. That isn't an instant increase in range to his ult, it is an increase in range under perfect circumstances, which is exactly what I think he needs. Keep in mind that a short-range gap closer still forces Skarner to extend, get in melee range and make a very big commitment. If they rest of his team isn't there to back him up it probably won't go well for him.


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Hiczi

Senior Member

08-03-2013

So I’ve been doing some digging and unfortunately, poor Skarner is being picked 80% less this year than he was last year. Some of this might be from some nerfs he has received, but it may also be because newer champs are outclassing him in what he does best. Either way, I think we all agree that Skarner could benefit from a few improvements to make him more fun/viable for both Skarner players and their opponents. Keep in mind, the goal here is not "make Skarner OP." There will always have to be strengths and weaknesses to all champions.


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Hiczi

Senior Member

08-03-2013

I honestly don't think this change would instantly make him OP. The range on his E is only 600, and I'm sure riot would nerf it to something like 400 if a change like this was made. That isn't an instant increase in range to his ult, it is an increase in range


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikohoness View Post
I'm sorry that you would stop playing him, but I think there are thousands of people that would start playing him (or pick him up again).

I really appreciate the feedback, and I think it is a worthy discussion.

There are several people who talk about Skarner being one of the best duelists in the game, but I honestly don't see it. Too many champs can slip away before Skarner can finish them off (Rengar, Khazix, Jax, Eve, Zed, Fizz and many others) Not to mention that they all build damage and penetration while Skarner is building tanky. It seems to me like the damage done TO Skarner is far more than he puts out in return, but maybe other people have better luck that I do.

I honestly don't think this change would instantly make him OP. The range on his E is only 600, and I'm sure riot would nerf it to something like 400 if a change like this was made. That isn't an instant increase in range to his ult, it is an increase in range under perfect circumstances, which is exactly what I think he needs. Keep in mind that a short-range gap closer still forces Skarner to extend, get in melee range and make a very big commitment. If they rest of his team isn't there to back him up it probably won't go well for him.

"I'm sorry that you would stop playing him, but I think there are thousands of people that would start playing him (or pick him up again)."

Is the point of the change to make a champion who isn't enjoyed by current Skarner players but is enjoyed by players who don't like the way Skarner is currently played? I don't see the point of that. If you want to make a champion for people who like a different playstyle, make that champion. For people who like this playstyle, keep Skarner as he is. The point shouldn't be about attracting the largest possible audience at the cost of core elements of Skarner (and it will, and I will say why later) it should be making sure that the people who enjoy this particular brand of champion are getting the most enjoyable champion they can have with the specific elements they enjoy about that champion.

"Not to mention that they all build damage and penetration while Skarner is building tanky."

If you're building pure tank on Skarner nowadays, you won't be successful. Skarner needs some damage. I recommend either Spirit of the Elder Lizard as a first/second item (synergizes really well with his Q and procs his E automatically), or picking up a Wit's End (vs magic damage when you were forced to build tanky early), Nashor's Tooth (if fed), Zephyr (if you don't have other sources of tenacity and really need the movement speed), or even just the very early Sheen. Pure tank won't work anymore after the resistances nerfs at the start of Season 3. Try building some damage mixed into your tank and then get into a fight with someone. You'll like the results.

(Also, building damage and penetration is kind of after the window we're talking about. Skarner's godlike dueling potential is at 0-2 items, after which he's only a great duelist. No penetration in the builds at that point.)

The reason Skarner is one of the best duelists in the game is because he wins almost any melee range fight. It's all about the interaction between the passive and the shield. The way to duel with Skarner is to let them put a bit of damage on you, and then use your shield for the steroid. With the time you spend under the shield, you'll be getting off more autoattacks, leading to shorter cooldowns on your abilities, particularly the shield, leading to more effective health and more autoattacks, leading to more abilities. If you get the loop working, he is able to outfight almost any other champion in the game (the best way to get this loop working is to let them burn a little burst on you before you shield, and to have resistances and attack speed). The amount of effective damage and tankiness he gets from the passive is very high. Chasing enemies down once they realize this and try to run it can be hard if they are some of the more mobile champions (as you note), but this can be dealt with by the proposed increases to his shield movement speed (he'll always have some problem catching assassins).

"I honestly don't think this change would instantly make him OP."

Oh, it would. It would make him broken instantly, and something else on his kit would have to go.

You've only talked about this in the context of him flash -> E -> ult initiating into a fight, but that's not what would make this change broken. That's just the icing on the cake. What you have to think about is what this gives the champion during the rest of his time on the map. Giving Skarner a blink makes him one of the most mobile champions in the game. Here's a list of things that you give to Skarner by giving him a blink.

1. You make his pre-6 ganks much stronger by allowing him to close in on his targets. Skarner's problem has always been closing the gap to his enemies. His pre-6 ganks are weak because he can't get to enemy champions in time to do anything to them before they escape. The blink fixes that problem by closing the gap for him. 2. You make his post-6 ganks much stronger for the same reason. He can just blink onto people and drag them away before they escape. 3. You make him much harder to kill. A Skarner who has to run away is much easier to catch than a Skarner who can blink over walls to get away. 4. You open up a ton of potential for him to just blink over walls and ambush people. 5. Seriously, think of all the ways you can use a blink, particularly in combination with his ult and permaslow.

Long story short: Skarner is balanced around not always being able to be in melee range of his opponents. He is balanced on the assumption that he will be facing more mobile opponents and that he will have to deal with kiting. Getting a blink invalidates that entirely. Give him a blink, and you have to reduce Skarner's power to compensate.

How will his power be reduced? Well, immobile ranged enemies currently deal with Skarner by either hitting him with CC and/or running away when they see him. If he can just blink into permaslow whenever he wants, they don't really have an option for escape. So, his CC being nerfed to give large windows of escape is a significant possibility. Then, there's the problem that Skarner would have both a mvoement speed steroid and a blink, making him one of the most mobile champions in the game. That doesn't really fit well with him being one of the strongest duelists either (even though you don't necessarily agree with it, I am taking it as a proposition of this argument that Skarner is one of the champions most capable of winning a melee 1v1 in the game). So, either his damage/tankiness will have to be reduced to ensure that such a mobile champion isn't an insane fighter, or he'll have to accepts nerfs to or the removal of his movement speed steroid to reduce his overall mobility.


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CracatoaX

Member

08-03-2013

When can we expect to see this on the PBE?