Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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olipops

Senior Member

07-31-2013

I love the idea of taking the slow out of skarners q and Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times, taking out that high mana cost useless heal, making his shield stronger and changing his e to an on hit effect, gives him alittle extra damage and a decaying 80% slow. This will really help skarner a lot especially in the jungle ( where he should be ) and making him. I feel like these changes really compliment his kit and work very well together.

Please keep up the good work Riot Scruffy. I cant wait to play the new skarner.


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Locke64

Senior Member

07-31-2013

After reading many of the thoughts expressed in this thread, I'd like to take another stab at answering your first question. What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner? Charging in, picking out the enemy carry, preventing its escape, and then escaping myself. These have important implications for all of his skills (besides his supposedly nonexistent E), and certain things need to remain intact.

Impale should not be given any sort of AoE CC or gap-closer/other means of increasing its effective or explicit range. It's a single-target ability that requires risk and commitment, it's very fun that way, and it should stay that way. If something needs to be done to help him not get kited so easily, it should be done to a different ability.

Crystal Slash needs its spammable slow. A less frequent, more powerful slow just doesn't work with his kit or playstyle. His MS is best exhibited when running alongside the slowed enemy, and his AS is mostly just for proccing Sheen and his passive more anyway. Your current Fracture looks like it produces more stop-and-go in 5-10 second intervals, which seems awkward for Skarner. From Skarner's point of view, it'd feel like I'd capture my prey, lose it, capture it again, and lose it again, assuming I can even keep up after the initial slow (and why wouldn't I start spamming Q immediately?). From the prey's point of view it'd feel like I've escaped, got caught again, escaped, and got caught again. This feels even more toxic than having more consistent almost-opportunities.

Crystalline Exoskeleton needs to be both an initiation tool and an escape tool. Giving it a ramp-up time is not a good idea, IMO. The immediate boost and hopping animation are what make this ability feel so good. Moving the AS buff away from this ability however is a good idea for obvious reasons. The shield is rarely up during combat (hence neither is the AS boost active). Its uses are to block initial damage as you close in, and then to prevent you from dying as you escape. AS isn't useful at either of these times. The one thing that the shield+MS+AS combo does well is attacking turrets, especially if tanking their damage. If the AS is moved somewhere else, make sure it can be used on turrets. I suppose being more reliant on having enemy minions with which to proc it would be acceptable though. Finally, I love how this ability rewards good use of Energize. The more AAs you get in, the sooner the shield+MS is available again and the faster you can escape (or keep chasing).

To reiterate my answer to your first question again, my favorite thing about Skarner is being very sticky but with the option of turning around and being very slippery when I need to. What I described above are the aspects of Skarner that are important for contributing to this. What your current iteration does is take away the stickiness of my Q and take away the slipperiness of my W.

With your intentions of introducing counterplay opportunities to his permaslow and improving his ganking/initiating power in mind, I have a few suggestions.

Q:
I liked your first iteration, minus the every-other-hit part, same as you. Yes, it's important that it doesn't proc until the second hit. Yes, a slow that is initially more powerful but decays can introduce opportunity for counterplay. Just get rid of the every-other-hit part and this ability will be fine. Let the slow proc on every cast after the first, but with a decay and small gap between casts. There's room for counterplay, but it still feels like a permaslow for the Skarner player if the opponent doesn't/can't take advantage of those opportunities.

W:
Yes, remove the AS. Yes, buff the shield. "My thought here is that, by focusing more of the defensive power into the W shield, he will be more consistent in catching enemies late game and getting off his crucial ults/auto attacks." - I agree. But no, don't add a ramp-up. Instead, let Crystal Slash's slows be more potent while the shield's up. At least the first one. This won't help solve the kiting problem as well as your ramp-up idea, but I kinda like that the primary counterplay to Skarner is to stay away from him. He's a scorpion. Bugs are gross. It's okay that it's a little difficult to get close, but once you do, that initial potent slow (which goes along with your current thoughts regarding Fracture) will allow you to position yourself to counteract attempts at escape at that point, such as moving ahead of the enemy for more reliable Qs. Then of course this introduces more interesting counterplay options, such as juking back the other way and finding an escape route Skarner wasn't expecting. Allowing the boosted slow on every Q while the shield is active can make the fight response more appealing relative to the flight response (break the shield to reduce both his speed and slows so you can escape more easily), but it might be OP with a buffed shield, so I'd limit it to the first cast.

E:
Again, I like your first iteration better. Moving the AS to E makes sense in his kit both in the jungle and in lane. As long as you remove the cast time, it'll become more relevant in chases to dish out damage and support the AS->CDR->more slows and AS cycle. For further improvements, I think Skarner would greatly benefit from one of the following:
-The knock-aside I saw someone mention earlier, like Draven's without the slow. It can be used in ganks to counter-kite your target, and it can be used in teamfights to push aside the front line and clear a path to the carry.
-Ignore unit collision with marked units, and with all allied units while any mark is active. Again, this helps get to your target. (Actually, this would conflict with the necessity to charge Q, popping the mark. Maybe just ignore all collision for a duration.)
Basically, remember what I said about using a different ability to support the shortcomings of Impale? This is it.

R:
Impale doesn't need much work aside from the QoL stuff you're already working on. As I said in an earlier post, a snare seems awkward, but you're on the right track. Do toy around with affecting Skarner's or enemies' speed while the ult is active (or inactive and not on cooldown) though. I saw an interesting idea of a Duskbringer-like trail that could either increase Skarner's speed or decrease enemies' speed. I'm not sure if anything that drastic is needed though. Certainly don't go too far with multi-target CC. As I said in the beginning of this post, Impale is a single-target spell at its core.

Also, I agree with Bikohoness' suggestion to apply these changes a little at a time. Fix the QoL stuff first, then tweak numbers, then shift around buffs, then decide if further reworks are still necessary or just more number tweaking.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

07-31-2013

I don't understand the need for the immobilize... couldn't you just apply the suppression instantly?


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Prismatic

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

1- The funnest parts of playing skarner are definetly his theme (who doesn't like a giant crystallized scorpion?) both in gameplay and out of gameplay. It feels great to pummel an enemy with bombardment after bombardment of shockwaves, and to be able to pull any champion imposing on your teammates with an awesome giant crystal stinger.

2- Unfun aspects of skarner are definetly his lackluster feel of his shield, as it's almost mindless in using, you just spam it as much as possible. Additionally, it feels really bad to be chasing someone while spamming Q because the AoE is just slightly too small to hit the target, so you end up either being kited or losing traction when fighting because the AoE is just slightly too small. Additionally, upping his ultimate feels lackluster due to the duration of the pull being the same each level. It should feel more powerful or gamechanging as the game goes on, not a mini-pull lategame, but a full on retracting a champion far away at higher levels. Also, abilities should change colors / design / visual effect based on which skin he is using, as opposed to the same blue crystal design for each skin. Finally, his E ability should have more impact upon using it, because right now it feels like you are shooting bright blue fairy powder at the enemy, not ripping the earth apart with a giant shard of crystal. His E ability feels lackluster.

3- Playing against skarner, his shield seems to either always be on, or be completely ignorable. Additionally, it feels bad to not be able to escape with his shield / Q spam always on. Aside from that, the lack of counterplay against his ulti leaves little to do if he either flashes or ghosts to you. It should, In my opinion, be either a very short ranged skillshot, able to skewer multiple champions, or something similar so that you can attempt to dodge this extremely powerful ability.

4- Champions that seem to be able to do Skarner's job better are zac, singed, and rammus, due to each of their abilities for constant tankiness and consistent AoE damage, as well as their abilities to displace enemies effectively.


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LOLBoredom

Junior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by olipops View Post
I love the idea of taking the slow out of skarners q and Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times, taking out that high mana cost useless heal, making his shield stronger and changing his e to an on hit effect, gives him alittle extra damage and a decaying 80% slow. This will really help skarner a lot especially in the jungle ( where he should be ) and making him. I feel like these changes really compliment his kit and work very well together.

Please keep up the good work Riot Scruffy. I cant wait to play the new skarner.
I really don't like how you say (Where he should be.) I have plenty of examples to give you but I know you won't care about what I have to say because I main Skarner mid and that is against the law of the league or whatever. So ill just use this as a very well known and recent example. If you search up Nunu and see his stats in the champions tab then you will very clearly see that his primary role is support but if you look at his recent stats on lolking you will find that as of recently Smite surpassed Exhaust as his summoner spell being picked 55.4% of the time when Exhaust is only picked 33.8% of the time in Ranked play. Just because a champion looked like he fits a role doesn't mean he does, people just conform and follow the leader and Riot goes with it and sees him as a very underpowered jungler when in reality he can wreck almost any mid player and most tops if not all with a good early gank and people who have played against me are always dumbfounded with how powerful he is in mid that they say he needs to be nerfed.


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Ferocitus

Member

07-31-2013

I think you should give stacks on Skarner's Q so like the first Q on someone would give one stack and say like you slow them for 20% then the next stack makes it 30% then 40% and make the stacks cap at like 5 or 6 (This is just made up numbers without much thought, could be better if you tweak the numbers) So its like Hecarim's Q except instead of lowering the cooldown, it increases the slow percentage


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LF Teemo

Senior Member

07-31-2013

bump


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Travistyse

Senior Member

07-31-2013

I just want him to remain viable in lane.


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JamesGatsby

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
Could you Add the Small lurch forward like Udyr does in bear stance to make it feel even more reliable?


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-01-2013

I honestly don't understand this idea that his Q "feels like it has no counterplay"... the only reason it feels that way is because Skarner takes so long to kill people. Seriously, think about how long an engagement needs to last in order for the feeling of "permaslow" to kick in. What is it, 5-10 seconds? Most other champs just kill you in that time, but Skarner needs to follow you around, making sure you can't get away, meanwhile you've got
A) enough time for teammates to join the engagement and save you
B) the ability to use any number of gapclosers to get away (flash/shift/blink) the only way Skarner will be able to catch up to you after using a blink is if he isn't slowed
C) get to a tower. Skarner takes so long to kill people during this permaslow period that a tower will most likely destroy him (assuming his ult is on CD)

I think that only champs that Skarner can kill quickly are the extremely squishy carries. And even then most of the junglers that are popular now would be able to kill them even faster. If Skarner gets a tanky bruiser in a permaslow situation, he won't be able to kill them before they get to a tower.

TL;DR: Skarner's Q only feels like it has no counterplay because he takes so long to kill his target