Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Swak

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff

I REALLY LIKE THE IDEA OF THIS.

His abilities all have a distinct PURPOSE. You wanna do more damage? Level Q. Having trouble getting to your target and being tanky enough? Level W. Having problems sticking to your target? Level E.

Also this solves a personal issue I used to have. I would always feel bad building Iceborn Gauntlet because I felt I was wasting the slow so much even though this item is everything Skarskar always wanted.


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

07-30-2013
11 of 35 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roablin View Post
An auto attack reset is a neat idea, but I don't feel that it is worth losing the previous functionality of Fracture for. Can you address the concerns of all the lane and AP Skarner players who feel that the ranged poke and heal were indeed very useful?
The new E does damage to enemies behind the initial target (like Vi E) so it can still be useful as a poke in lane.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Is W still going to have a nice ramp up to its speed? That works well for Hecarim's gapcloser without being a point+click instantly in melee range generic gap closer, so I think we'd be happy with that on Skarner.


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oldRakdos

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
Interesting

but as i said before, i feel if you eliminate the heal he is going to have some problems staying in lane or stay in the jungle more time and is going to depend of potion early game (waste of money when you can get just one or 2 and a ward for watch for invasion or help a lane that get ganked early game?


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newpillows

Member

07-30-2013

@RiotScruffy

I don't know if this has already been said, but the reason why Skarner has such a low play rate is that Iceborn Gauntlet has made him not viable. Skarner's huge strength was in his permaslow Q and his pull on his ult. Both of these have better alternatives. His Q is essentially Iceborn Gauntlet and his ultimate has too long of a cooldown to be effective. Combine that with the fact he doesn't have a gap closer just makes not worth a pick.

Why pick Skarner when you can have a Thresh with ranged pull and flay? Both of those are usable every 20 seconds while Skarner's R is over a minute.

When you start balancing Cooldowns to be better balanced then more champions will be played.


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

07-30-2013
12 of 35 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
Is W still going to have a nice ramp up to its speed? That works well for Hecarim's gapcloser without being a point+click instantly in melee range generic gap closer, so I think we'd be happy with that on Skarner.
Yes, the ramp up has been working out so far. Its still part of the new kit.


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Tsun Meta Knight

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swak View Post
I REALLY LIKE THE IDEA OF THIS.

His abilities all have a distinct PURPOSE. You wanna do more damage? Level Q. Having trouble getting to your target and being tanky enough? Level W. Having problems sticking to your target? Level E.

Also this solves a personal issue I used to have. I would always feel bad building Iceborn Gauntlet because I felt I was wasting the slow so much even though this item is everything Skarskar always wanted.
But, his current Q already do what his proposed Q and proposed E do together.


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MaingoSeven

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Unless he's getting some major ability base numbers buffs, this overall seems like a nerf.
His slow is now coming up less often, his heal is gone and he has no way to take advantage of Q being the AS increase if he can't keep the enemy pinned down with permaslow.

So, unless the shield is ending up around 325+ base while giving monstrous movespeed for a longer duration and E slow is becoming a low cooldown, long duration HARD slow then its going to be a nerf. Skarner can't afford to build a lot of damage items so buffing up ratios is a waste and an insult.
I don't see how you can buff the bases up to keep this from being a nerf while not making Skarner overly strong because of broken base damages.


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oldRakdos

Senior Member

07-30-2013

o yeah, nothing new in the ult, like more range or more effective to avoid escape like flash once the ult was use it


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The new E does damage to enemies behind the initial target (like Vi E) so it can still be useful as a poke in lane.
I think you missed my question earlier, so I'll ask again. Does the E slow proc on ally damage as well, or only on Skarner's damage?