@Lyte - Player Behavior, Matchmaking, and Life as a Scientist

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Ginga

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Senior Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
This feature would give players a new incentive to do so for the rare chance that they could get something in return (for almost no cost).
In response to this, don't you already ban people who abuse the report function? While it's certainly true that everyone have had mis-reports as a honest mistake, those who spam report at the weakest players who perform the worst would likely end up having a lot of pardoned reports, and THAT should give a pretty dead give-away that he's just abusing the system. Hypothetically, wouldn't this


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
So what's the cost and value of such a feature? We've created an incentive to always report the worst player in every game in the hopes of a future return; but have we increased the accuracy of reports? Have we reduced the number of negative incidents in a given game? Have we shielded players who are performing poorly from the verbal abuse or harassment they receive in the heat of a match?
This is probably where the trade-off happens. I believe you that the instances of false reports will probably rise a certain amount, even despite my hypothetical argument above. That is the cost. But the benefit is that players will not be nearly as heavily affected by the loss of an unfair game, and thus, less likely to lose their cool in upcoming games, preventing them from potentially becoming toxic themselves. In the long run, not having to worry about leavers or trolls may reduce a lot of ladder tension, as the instance of losing unfair games becomes mitigated.



With that said, do you have any plans that focuses more on the non-toxic players who had to put up with these people? About a year ago I left LoL simply because I had to put up with one too many players who ragequit due to not getting the blue buff, and feeling absolutely powerless to stop these instances. Going to the tribunal occasionally didn't alleviate the feelings of powerlessness, as it will never undo the damage of those ranked games lost. So in the end I decided to take a long break from the game after it became clear that I was becoming a worse person overtime due to the exposure.


I know you are much bigger than all of us and have to see things in a broader perspective. But how often have you lost a game because an ally started throwing the game after you accidentally took his blue buff? How would you feel if this happened enough times to get you demoted? Those people will get what's coming. But what about you and your allies? It's a real kick in the morale.

PS - there's way too many games I know is an instant loss from as early as champion select. I understand why you re-implemented penalty for dodging the game in return for a shorter time-out, but all it's done is trap players into playing a lost game against a person who declared their intention to lose the game before it even started. 100% of the time, they followed up on their threat. I'm not too keen to play with an ally whose response to friendly advice is "stfu b*tch".

PPS - have there ever been any consideration at all about notifying players who reported a person that said person has been punished by the tribunal? It would be such great catharsis to learn the Graves who threw the game because the enemy bribed him with honours is banned. Same goes for the Fiddlesticks who left the game because our Swain took the blue buff the jungler was offering. More importantly, it would give players "proof" that the system works(slowly).


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Stupid Jungler

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Hey Lyte, Riot Exekias.
Has the idea ever floated around to take summoners that have an extremely good record of being friendly, and helpful players to make them some sort of mod almost in game? What I am imagining is someone that can say at the end of a game, flag a toxic player that can be looked at by people in your staff, who can then try and help change the toxic players behavior in a positive way.

Also in regards to champ select: Summoner X loves to play *insert role*, but summoner X doesn't like to cause problems in the lobby with other players who are aggressive in wanting that role. The end result is summoner X hardly gets to do the thing he likes most about League. Have you guys made any headway with this sort of thing?


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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09-09-2013
102 of 107 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskintilki View Post
Hey Lyte,

First, I'm glad that you are keeping an eye on this thread, it helps to know your (and your teams) interest is not fleeting at improving the behavior.

I just have a few ideas I'd love to get your input on.

In regards to honor, what are the plans with honor, as currently it means nothing. I feel like majority of the player-base has some sort of honor, yet it feels like no one really knows what its for?? Is there a purpose to honor??

I think queue restrictions are a GREAT idea, and if I may I'd like to suggest a form of restriction.

The person who is being restricted, should be restricted based on number of games. However, the restriction itself should be tiered. If you are restricted the only games you can play are bot games, which then opens up normals, and lastly you can once again queue for ranked games. Similar to how leveling currently works.


Lastly, punishments. Has your team, or yourself for that matter consider IP as punishment, meaning, a form of punishment would be to remove IP accrual for certain amount of games.

I also would very much like to pose a few questions for you.

A lot of the discussion with the behavior comes down to, well the may necessarily be toxic but may have had a bad day, week, month and simply exhibited toxic behavior due to that. So my question is, why does this matter? I feel like its an excuse, used by the behavior team to limit punishment. In my opinion it doesn't matter why you exhibited the behavior, what matters is the fact that you DID exhibit the behavior, anonymity should have no bearing nor be an excuse for this type of behavior, simply because if this type of behavior was done on a person to person basis, there would be some form of punishment, be it a stern talking or dare I say getting your ass kicked. So why are we looking for excuses?? to not punish behavior that should be punished. The other 9 players should not suffer because you had a bad day, week, month.

Finally, why is the team so resistant to simply implementing a solution. (particularly those involving afk/leavers because they are afraid it will be abused) Being a highly educated individual do you have a basis for not implementing it?? Is there precedence that you have not shared with us (in the form of research or something similar), after all, if its never implemented we wouldn't know the impact, and guessing games help no one.
We're currently working on a new solution for Champion Select problems, but are doing research on Honor and where we want to take it in the future. We agree that usage has gone down, although there's still a very healthy amount of Honors handed out in Normal Blind Pick, Co-op vs Bots and Howling Abyss; however, there's less Honor being handed out in Ranked Teams and Ranked (partially because premade teams don't often give each other Honor). We're not ready to talk about the future of Honor yet, but we'll start once we finish working on Champion Select.

I don't agree that discussing the origin of toxic behavior is an excuse. I agree that damage has been done whether a player is having a bad day or whether they are consistently toxic; however, understanding the origin of the toxic behavior allows us to better address the behavior. For example, does a player who is the most awesome, positive player in the community for 9999 games and happens to have 1 bad game, should they be permabanned? This is an extreme example, but illustrates why understanding the origin of the toxic behavior can help us address it in an appropriate way.

We have considered different types of 'punishments' for players such as limiting queues or limiting IP, but right now we're focusing on Champion Select. We've also taken a pretty drastic shift in our approach to player behavior over the last year, and we'd prefer rewards and incentives rather than punishments. As an example, let's say we had a game where players could share cookies, or be selfish and eat all the cookies themselves. We'd prefer players to share cookies, but instead of punishing players for being selfish and eating all the cookies, we could reward players with an additional half cookie if they shared the cookie with others. We truly believe that if you make it easy for players to be good and do the right thing, they do.

We're not resistant to simply implementing solutions, especially with Leaver/AFK. There's just a lot of data and experience from other games that solutions like a Vote-Kick are extremely abused and often considered grave mistakes when the studios tried them. I generally prefer to go with the data, and not make the same mistakes over and over again


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Vlad Alexa

Member

09-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by lyte View Post
...... Cookies .... Eat all the cookies .... Share cookies ......
Cookies!

One trains much auto control while playing ranked and wanting to win, a cookie wouldn't hurt.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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09-09-2013
103 of 107 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
In response to this, don't you already ban people who abuse the report function? While it's certainly true that everyone have had mis-reports as a honest mistake, those who spam report at the weakest players who perform the worst would likely end up having a lot of pardoned reports, and THAT should give a pretty dead give-away that he's just abusing the system. Hypothetically, wouldn't this
You're right, there are bans for report-abusers; however, how many negative behaviors have we created in players? After this feature goes live, some percentage of players will now abuse the report system to try to get some returns and end up being banned. Is this a new demographic that wouldn't have been banned otherwise, or were they toxic in some other way to begin with? If it's a brand new demographic that is now being banned, that's a significant cost to the feature.

Quote:
This is probably where the trade-off happens. I believe you that the instances of false reports will probably rise a certain amount, even despite my hypothetical argument above. That is the cost. But the benefit is that players will not be nearly as heavily affected by the loss of an unfair game, and thus, less likely to lose their cool in upcoming games, preventing them from potentially becoming toxic themselves. In the long run, not having to worry about leavers or trolls may reduce a lot of ladder tension, as the instance of losing unfair games becomes mitigated.
Because the feedback loop of the system would be slow, the benefit isn't that clear. Would a player really be less likely to lose their cool in follow-up games? After all, the player has no idea whether reporting the toxic player in the current game will result in some alleviation of the loss in the future. What if the player reports 10 players and genuinely feels he deserves to be compensated for their actions, and only receives notifications for 4 of them? Would that itself cause frustration?

Quote:
With that said, do you have any plans that focuses more on the non-toxic players who had to put up with these people? About a year ago I left LoL simply because I had to put up with one too many players who ragequit due to not getting the blue buff, and feeling absolutely powerless to stop these instances. Going to the tribunal occasionally didn't alleviate the feelings of powerlessness, as it will never undo the damage of those ranked games lost. So in the end I decided to take a long break from the game after it became clear that I was becoming a worse person overtime due to the exposure.

I know you are much bigger than all of us and have to see things in a broader perspective. But how often have you lost a game because an ally started throwing the game after you accidentally took his blue buff? How would you feel if this happened enough times to get you demoted? Those people will get what's coming. But what about you and your allies? It's a real kick in the morale.
We're definitely trying to figure it out. Part of our shift in focus is on the neutral and positive players, and mitigating and preventing the frustration they feel when they do experience a toxic situation.

Quote:
PS - there's way too many games I know is an instant loss from as early as champion select. I understand why you re-implemented penalty for dodging the game in return for a shorter time-out, but all it's done is trap players into playing a lost game against a person who declared their intention to lose the game before it even started. 100% of the time, they followed up on their threat. I'm not too keen to play with an ally whose response to friendly advice is "stfu b*tch".

PPS - have there ever been any consideration at all about notifying players who reported a person that said person has been punished by the tribunal? It would be such great catharsis to learn the Graves who threw the game because the enemy bribed him with honours is banned. Same goes for the Fiddlesticks who left the game because our Swain took the blue buff the jungler was offering. More importantly, it would give players "proof" that the system works(slowly).
We're working hard on Champion Select because of the exact issues you are mentioning. There's several factors about Champion Select that are less than ideal right now, including having players in the same game who have different expectations (play to win versus play for fun). You also have time pressure making the Champion Select situation quite hostile as players try to discuss team strategy while a looming count-down timer is ticking. We can't wait to talk to players about our plans for Champion Select; to be honest, the entire player behavior team is excited because they want to use it and play with it in game.

We've known for a long time now that we want to notify players about the effectiveness of their reports (and to thank players for using the report system correctly to improve the community); however, it's just an issue of pragmatism for us. It's a feature we'd love to do one day, but it doesn't surpass the priority of something like Champion Select.


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universe within

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Member

09-09-2013

@Dr. Lyte,

If a player abused the report feature and had his report confidence rating tarnished so that his reports had no value, would he be able to restore confidence over time by making reports on legitimately toxic players?


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Kinperor

Junior Member

09-09-2013

Hey Lyte,

Sorry if that was brought up before, but I had the spark of an idea and I was wondering what you thought about it:

What if the players that got "muted" in a match received a notification that he got muted? It would say something along the line of "Oi buddy, you made someone sad/angry/disgusted and they muted you. Quit it." or something. The notification wouldn't name the person that muted.

I thought about it, and every time we mute someone, we feel the need to tell them, like it would change something. That doesn't do much tho, I think a notification from the game client would have more heft to it. The pop-ups I suggest reminded me a bit about the behavioral alerts that were implemented, so I thought it might be an interesting addition. It isn't a ban or a chat restriction, just a reminder that all the player achieved was getting ignored for his hissy fits (or whatever he did) and hopefully a nudge in the right direction.

Thanks for your attention.


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Valykdor

Member

09-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We're working hard on Champion Select because of the exact issues you are mentioning. There's several factors about Champion Select that are less than ideal right now, including having players in the same game who have different expectations (play to win versus play for fun).

That's an easy one, ranked queue should be for a serious play-to-win match, where u aim to climb the ladder.

Normal queue, its for people to test champs, strats, have fun, etc.

Now, people getting reported at ranked queue should be severely punished, since u r supposed to be playing to win.

Truth is, Riot needs to "stablish order" about how to play this game.

In normal queue, there's this "unwritten rule" about calls > pick-order that forces players to follow it and it decreases the number of people raging cause they have to support. This because it's how it works, and is stablished like that.

In ranked queue, people yells the role they want, and start acting like a 3yo if they dont get the role/champ they want, instead of queuing with the "Fill any role" mindset.


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Slyvery

Senior Member

09-09-2013

What is the behavioral team thoughts on studies such as Alfie Kohn 1994, The Risks of Reward, and such studies referenced?

Basically it could mean that punishment might be a much smarter idea as opposed to reward system, if the system is only temporary.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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09-09-2013
104 of 107 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by universe within View Post
@Dr. Lyte,

If a player abused the report feature and had his report confidence rating tarnished so that his reports had no value, would he be able to restore confidence over time by making reports on legitimately toxic players?
Yes, if a player begins reporting accurately, their report ratings will increase again.