65% healing Redux is too much!

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Xetal

Senior Member

12-17-2009

The entire purpose of the item is to counter healing. 40% just doesn't cut it, though 65% might be a bit overkill.

Quote:
You don't see that kind of debuffing anywhere in the game -- it's usually at 40%.


False.
Gangplank's passive is 50%
Trist's Explosive Shot is 65%

I don't think there is a single ability in the game that reduces healing by only 40%.


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Vaaz

Senior Member

12-17-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xetal View Post
The entire purpose of the item is to counter healing. 40% just doesn't cut it, though 65% might be a bit overkill.



[/b]False.
Gangplank's passive is 50%
Trist's Explosive Shot is 65%

I don't think there is a single ability in the game that reduces healing by only 40%.

You kinda of missed the point...

All the heavy counters to stacking are 40%. Void staff does 40% of magic armor, last wisper does 40% to armor, why should heals be 65%. BTW last patch(not todays) all healing reduces from all items and all skills are now 65%


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Xetal

Senior Member

12-17-2009

Quote:
You kinda of missed the point...

All the heavy counters to stacking are 40%. Void staff does 40% of magic armor, last wisper does 40% to armor, why should heals be 65%. BTW last patch(not todays) all healing reduces from all items and all skills are now 65%
I got the point, I just disagree that all counters need to have 40% effectiveness. The norm for healing reduction is not 40%, and I don't think that it should be simply because Armor/MR pen items are 40%.


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I8C SRS FACE

Senior Member

12-18-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
They can still heal past the debuffs rather easily. The problem, and reason, for the debuffs to be increased is the fact that there were so many champions with lifesteal, regeneration, and heal abilities able to just ignore all but the heaviest burst damage.
Hahahahahahahahahaha.

Wait, you seriously think that? Wow. Please tell me you're joking. The debuff ruins the heal from Taric's ultimate, makes Soraka borderline worthless, and ruins Dr. Mundo. It's hard enough to "heal through" the damage of a single carry during a teamfight, and this makes it worthless to even attempt it.

Taric's heal at max rank does 270+0.9 ability power. It reduces the heal to 94 and a half hit points healed. Factoring in the 48 damage that the debuff does over time, it makes your heal hit for 46 points only! Yeah. He can totally heal through your damage anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagna
It is not worth getting to offset one healer. That's just bad play. If a team does stack it for just one healer (or if every champ on your team has Heal) then change your build. Taric, Soraka, Alistar all have very good builds that are not healing based. Normally you will see an executioners calling early as it is cheap. One champ having will it not nerf your healing into the ground if you focus as a team. I have never gotten a Executioners calling just because the opposing team has 1 healer. It is a waste and just easier to dps through the heal. I will say though, I will get one to counter Mundo currently (if the team is ahead or Mundo is fed).
It's worth getting a ton of champions even if there isn't a healer in the entire game. Many champions want lifesteal but prefer crit over attack speed, or they already get other items that increase attack speed significantly. Master Yi and Tryndamere immediately come to mind. Oddly enough, despite being able to apply the same debuff with explosive shot, it's a great item for Tristana as well. Also, oddly enough because his passive applies a healing debuff on-hit, it's a great item for Gangplank. (Plus, it means you can apply the healing debuff with your gun, and then hit them with your sword, making both poisons stack and making it literally impossible to heal.)

If you're a DPS champ and there's someone on their team that could be somewhat of a problem if they heal, it should be your first or second item.


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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-20-2009

i think they should:
1. make the buff last shorter, forcing the person who generated the buff to have to keep hitting you to keep the buff there and if he stops for even a moment, the buff disapears.
2. give an new item that is something like

Nullifier: Anytime you target a unit with an ability, the target unit will be cleansed of negative buffs.

so this way, any time allies target allies with spells.. which isn't often, since most characters dont have allie-target spells, they could keep removing that buff. so characters like soraka could then re-counter the executioner's calling because her healing spell would also cleanse the buff.


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Maleagant

Senior Member

12-21-2009

Just to clear up some Misconceptions here......


#1. The What.
=================================================
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=30496

Patch notes from V1.0.0.61 (Dec. 1st Udyr's patch)

Please scroll down to:

Gangplank note the change on his healing redux from 50% to 65%.

Tristana same changefrom 50% on explosive shot to 65%

Katarina changed from 60% to 65%.

Additionally Kat and Gang had their durations increased to 10 seconds I'd assume Trist's was already there.

Executioner's Calling changed from 40% to 65% duration set to 12 seconds.
==================================================

#2. The How.
==================================================
This Healing reduction effects:

ALL LIFE STEAL without regard to its source (Item/Passive/Ability).
ALL REGEN without regard to its source (Item/Passive/Ability).
ALL HEALS without regard to its source (Item/Summoner Spell/Ability).
==================================================

3. The Who.
==================================================
Really this effects all of us:

Casual players are hit hard because rare is the MM group that discusses team comp and more often players play who they enjoy.

More competitive "Hardcore" players are not left without impacted though. Suddenly a slew of champions who had been good, viable choices..... are suddenly gimped by a single match up or item.

More specially champions who depend on or are noticeably impacted by life steal/heals/Regen include:

Cho'Gath (Passive)
Singed (Ult)
Dr. Mundo (Passive + Ult)
Gangplank (Ability)
Tryndamere (Ability)
Fiddlesticks (Ability)
Kayle (Ability)
Master Yi (Ability)
Alistar (Ability)
Soraka (Ability + Ult)
Nasus (Passive)
Warwick (Passive + Ability)
Morgana (Passive)
Sion (Ability + Ult)
Taric (Ability + Ult)
Janna (Ult)

Admittedly some on the last are more effected than others and some it is almost not worth mentioning, but how many of these (and other dps champions) look to further this ability with some additional Life steal item?
=================================================

#4. The Why
=================================================
As to why this change hits these champions so hard and really everyone who has one of them on their team, I would refer you to earlier posts in this tread it has been laid out by myself and others clearly enough already.


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Clutch Gatorade

The Council

12-23-2009

I've posted various threads in Adjudicator and Council forums about this, here's one of them copy/pasted. I apologize if anything is outdated or since been nerfed/buffed/changed in some form or fashion. I have since stopped posting on the forums for various reasons but thought maybe this would add to your discussion. I have always felt 65% was to much, and not the proper answer to regulating heal based team comps, even at 40% I felt as if it was not a proper solution. Anyways...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch View Post
This thread sparked a somewhat in depth debate with a friend about the item, and here's some of the things argued. Take them as you will, maybe it will help persuade you in some way to think outside the box. I'm not advocating these ideas as right or wrong, but just looking to get some ideas flowing to find a proper outlet for things such as a healing debuff.

1. The item itself is extremely situational, not just based on the opposing champions running a support setup (such as Taric, Soraka, Mino, Jenna, etc), but the fact that the crit and lifesteal is very role specific as well. The item can't even be considered by a caster/magic focused champion. This in turn makes far less common because it is very scenario specific, and role specific, which brings up the next point.


2. The reason I make the argument in #1 is because almost (or seemingly almost) every item in the game has a compliment or an opposing item that fits more than 1 role or champion. There are exceptions to this observation I'm sure, but more importantly here are the quick examples of this, that we could come up with which fit into this trend of items.
  • 2a. Gold Per 10 *
    • Philo Stone - Regen build
    • Heart of Gold - Tank
    • Avarice Blade - Crit build
    • Lucky Pick - Caster
  • 2b. CC/Slow *
    • Frozen Mallet - Physical DPS
    • Rylais Scepter - Frozen Mallet's compliment for magical damage (AP instead of DMG) and skills
  • 2c. Penetration *
    • Black Cleaver - Phys DPS
    • Brutalizer - Phys DPS
    • Sunder - Armor Pen Talent
    • Archaic Knowledge - Magic Pen Talent
    • Sorc Boots - Magic Pen
    • Abyssal Scepter - Magic Pen
  • 2d. HP/MP = DMG/AP *
    • Atmas - HP intensive build
    • Archangels Staff - MP intensive build
  • 2e. Movespeed *
    • Obviously catered to multiple roles in numerous ways
  • 2f. Catalyst *
    • Even Catalyst grants itself greater appeal because it builds into numerous viable items fitting into multiple kinds of builds. Banshees and Rod of Ages being the primary two.
  • 2g. Doran's *
    • Doran's items, largely diversified to appeal to multiple types of champions for starting items
  • 2h. HP/MP Regen Aura *
    • Emblem of Valor - HP Regen Aura
    • Mana Manip - MP Regen Aura

These are the examples that jumped out at us, and there are surprisingly, a lot more items which have a unique opposite item to compliment it in a similar, if not exact manner. I think looking at Executioners Calling from this perspective shows that it is severely limited by being only on a single item in its current form.

I am not saying that an exact caster item opposite should be created to increase the appeal of healing debuffs, because a 40-50% debuff would probably be imba, but I think a properly scaled item could be created for other roles, largely magic focused champs.


3. Another arguement could be made by looking at Banshees Veil, the item has a very unique trait to block spells, but the thing that makes BV such a great item is it can appeal to almost ANY class. Who doesn't need need health and mana? (Yes I understand the arguement can be made against champs like Mundo, and Katarina etc, there will always be exceptions).

By this I'm trying to say although the Unique Passive is on only 1 item in the game (without a similar item to compliment it) its appeal is not limited to a specific build because its other stats are HP/MP, universally important. Whereas EC only contains crit % and lifesteal.


4. All this proposes another speculation I had. Where are the healing increase items? In some shape or form to counter? I know this may sound silly at first, but seriously, think about it.

**Side-note: I do realize that AP does increase skill heals, but two points to make about that would be, it does not increase summoner heal, while a healing debuff would decrease it. The other point being that many other debuffs have direct reductions on stats themselves, like Armor/Magic pen. While EC has a percentage reduced on heals as a whole. I view it only fair to have percentage based increases on heals as well.

Examples of counters:
  • Movespeed - Various CC items
  • Resist - Magic Pen
  • Armor - Armor Pen
  • Attack Speed - Frozen Heart
  • Stealth - Elixir/Wards
  • Excessive CC - Merc Treads

Among many more. Why should healing increase be exempt to this apparent rule of balance? The main point is that there are ways to increase/decrease almost every player influenced aspect of the game. Leaving healing with only a way to decrease its effects is not fair or appropriate from a technical perspective. There most certainly should be an item and or items to increase healing if debuffing is going to be made more commonplace. EC is already debilitating enough at 40% (without being stacked on a champion with it as a passive or skill), but with no way to counter it, it seems illogical from a balance standpoint.

Even if it is rarely seen for various other reasons, it does not change the fact that the 40% itself is very effective, and is NOT what needs to be buffed. I more or less have only played Taric for the past month or more, and it is noticeably effective as is from my current experiences. The viability of the item lies outside of the healing debuff, not within.

I have more points to discuss and questions to ask the community their opinion on about this topic, but I have ranted enough for the moment I think and the above ideas hopefully will spark some interest and debate about the future of healing buff/debuff items in LoL. Let me know what you guys think of this spur of the moment reply.

<3


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Ggjeed

Member

12-23-2009

I've always favored soraka since i started playing, but healers are now completely useless because of the huge effect of the healing debuff. If you keep such a ridiculous debuff you might as well just remove all healing characters from the game. There isn't a point of planning team composition with support if a 5 dps team can, without spending much money, defeat the purpose of healing.


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ConeEtho

Senior Member

12-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggjeed View Post
I've always favored soraka since i started playing, but healers are now completely useless because of the huge effect of the healing debuff. If you keep such a ridiculous debuff you might as well just remove all healing characters from the game. There isn't a point of planning team composition with support if a 5 dps team can, without spending much money, defeat the purpose of healing.
That is a stupid and gross exageration. Healers have a single target counter in battle.

They still can:

- Dominate a lane. If you need to heal and the debuff is applied just retreat to teh tower, wait the effect to wear off and heal), then go back to the creeps

- Heal all the initiator damage in a team fight

- Heal all your team, between team fights

- Heal the focused hero, even at a diminush effect (35%)

- Use other non healing abilities, which ALL of them have


So no, even if their whole opposing team makes executioner's callings Soraka is still quite useful. The proof is that she is still picked, and a lot, in games of any level.


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