A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Jamochawoke

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
I would also like to ask some questions:

How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?
If it did substantially more damage to balance it out, i'm cool with it.

Quote:
How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?
I'm not sure, I like the single target snare. But I do think a teamwide aoe slow for everyone caught in it's range would be useful. Think of like a bola that spins off other bolas once it hits its main target.


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InubashiriMomiji

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Still not clear about Riot's intentions with this iteration of Rengar; there's still no reason to expect that the proposed changes fix anything about Rengar other than what Riot has decided they don't like about the character.

Will this iteration be more of an assassin or a bruiser? If he is an assassin, will he be able to kill his target without being blown up and how will he survive after going in considering he still has no way to drop Aggro? If he''s intended to be a bruiser, isn't this just another single-target bruiser that will likely flounder due to the problems with being a single-target melee bruiser in the current metagame?

One of the most beloved and valued parts about Rengar from the moment he entered the competitive scene was his ability to be a reliable anti-carry. Will he still be able to do this to the same capacity?

I'm still not sure what the intention is, since the most information about Riot's view on Rengar is that parts of him are toxic and have to be excised. That doesn't bode well or engender any kind of hope.


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RadiantWings

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Senior Member

07-18-2013

Bola Strike being a skill shot simply wouldn't work simply because of Empowered Battle roars healing. You either get into a situation where Rengar can bola nothing for Ferocity, or you end up making a system where missing a skillshot not only loses you the effect of your skillshot but throws your entire skill rotation out of whack which would feel terrible.

If you could set up a system where Rengar can be balanced around gaining Ferocity out of combat then it would be fine since that means that missing a Bola shot would probably be balanced even if it granted Ferocity on use rather than hit.


Also, you guys really want to make Bonetooth necklace an integral part of Rengars experience, so why make it an item at all? Why not just make it an inherent part of Rengar where you can purchase effects for gold if you've collected enough trophies ? That would drastically reduce the inherent snowballing of BN while still feeling rewarding by opening up a wealth of customization options to Rengar in a way that even his nemesis wouldn't be able to match.

Finally, Bonetooth Necklace building out of Machete is stupid. This would DENY Rengar literally every other jungle item in favor of this unique one rather than open up options.


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Domo Sairento

Junior Member

07-18-2013

The Bola Strike being a skill shot sounds pretty neat, given u give it some decent range. But it would have to be a snare, pretty sure the champ would trip if bola'd.

The Bone Tooth is very essential to the Rengar build, And being he is a very good jungle, making the tooth build out of the machete wouldn't be a bad idea at all. But keep the tooth's perks.

Just a thought: The ability to jump to a Bola Struck person. And I'm not talking about his passive jump distance, no that is too much distance. But lets say you are chasing a champ through mid, (not really any bushes unless he hits river) and you skill shot a bola strike. For the duration of the slow/snare Rengar gains the ability to jump, or "pounce", on to the target. I would say maybe 1/3 or 1/2 the distance of his passive leap range... the jump doesn't have to do any damage. just helps close the gap.

"Bola Strike/Pounce" if u would want to do a E/E set-up.

Let me know what every one thinks.


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D0cta J0nes

Junior Member

07-18-2013

that 1sec delay on his R is extremely annoying but i feel insta invis would be OP. .25-.5 sec delay?


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exec3

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Catching this before i leave - i think something like this sounds really cool. I know i mentioned earlier that we were looking at +MS% in brush. What do people think about similar version?

'Rengar gains X movement speed while not visible to the enemy team (or out of combat). This bonus is doubled while Rengar is in brush.' ?

A lot of the bonetooth ideas specifically have been pretty interesting - Wav3break's heavy lifting is going to be focused on BTN, but i'll make sure to keep passing these along.
Sounds interesting but how would it interact with wards? Also I think having the effect doubled in brush isn't needed, getting the bonus MS from simply being unseen by enemies is enough imo.


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Hochstadt

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Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
So i'm finishing up packing and heading to bed before my flight in the morning (For those of you who missed the previous post, i'm heading the Spain for the EU Pro Player conference for a couple of days) but wanted to let you guys know about the iteration we just clocked - while i won't be around for playtests on thursday or friday, Wav3break will be tuning numbers and driving it while i'm gone.

I'll update the original post as well, but the changes look something like:

Savagery
- Attack Speed reinstated, -slight- buff to %AS, -slight- nerf to base damage.


Empowered Savagery
- In addition to dealing bonus damage, grants Rengar 3 Ferocity.


So what does this mean? Basically, Rengar's Empowered Savagery sets him up for a potential Ryze-like spell chain. Feedback from this thread has been that (Triple Q or no), you guys really like stabbing. With this setup, you can Q2 -> Q, W, -> Q2, E. Q ->Q2 again, with a higher degree of Attack Speed than before. I've played around with the changes a bit with a few people and i have to say it looks pretty awesome tbh. You lie in wait, ready for the kill....and then you proceed to maul your target's face off.

Another cool thing about the 'Q-Train' as Volty calls it, is that you can end the cycle at any point with Empowered Battle Roar or Emp. Bola strike and call it a day, winning trades or flatly disengaging. We still need to see what this does in laning situations, but from i can tell it drastically increases his engagement windows but highly rewards him for 'keeping up' his combos - all while hacking away like a madman.

I suspect it will be slightly OP with this version, but we can always tune. One idea we had is to slightly lower the damage further of Empowered Savagery, but instead have it apply a debuff making your next Emp. Savagery deal 50% more damage (probably only stacks 3 times?). This option feels unnecessary at -this- point, but can proceed to it if his laning is obnoxious but we like the pattern of Q2. Also drives home a lot of the 'single-target mauling predator' feel if you can single out your prey and make their lives hell.

Feeling more confident about this version, but everything is always subject to change. Could possibly see Bola's slow% being increased to accomodate Rengar's knifing around if he's having too much trouble gettin' to the folks he needs. Looking into using Battle Roar as a slot to provide a mechanic that helps him survive endgame without making his solo/dueling cases feel unbeatable - some of you guys have suggested a Wukong-like 'Less defense, but stacking with nearby targets' and i'd like to try it and see how it goes.

Even to those who think i'm not listening - your voices not going unheard. Thanks again for all of your posts, y'all.

EDIT BECAUSE DOUBLEPOSTING IS TACKY -


Catching this before i leave - i think something like this sounds really cool. I know i mentioned earlier that we were looking at +MS% in brush. What do people think about similar version?

'Rengar gains X movement speed while not visible to the enemy team (or out of combat). This bonus is doubled while Rengar is in brush.' ?

A lot of the bonetooth ideas specifically have been pretty interesting - Wav3break's heavy lifting is going to be focused on BTN, but i'll make sure to keep passing these along.
My hope in this Rengar revamp is RESTORED!


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Just to buffer Scarizard's post, I am currently tuning the new "Q-Train" destroyer knife cat damage window and I'm not gonna lie, this thing feels freaking awesome to pull off. You will knife more than you ever could and stab peoples faces like no tomorrow. Now time to balance and test it more :P. Again everything is subject to change.

I would also like to ask some questions:

How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

P.S. I think Bone Tooth is feeling pretty healthy building out of a Hunter's machete for all of you jungle Rangos out there .

Continue to give us great ideas guys we will continue to iterate and try our best to make sure Rengar becomes an awesome and healthy character!
I think bola strike would be a blast as a skill shot. Definitely makes more sense thematically. Not sure how empowered bola could give more team utility though, giving it an area effect would feel to ulty imo.


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AK MasterMason

Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Just to buffer Scarizard's post, I am currently tuning the new "Q-Train" destroyer knife cat damage window and I'm not gonna lie, this thing feels freaking awesome to pull off. You will knife more than you ever could and stab peoples faces like no tomorrow. Now time to balance and test it more :P. Again everything is subject to change.

I would also like to ask some questions:

How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

P.S. I think Bone Tooth is feeling pretty healthy building out of a Hunter's machete for all of you jungle Rangos out there .

Continue to give us great ideas guys we will continue to iterate and try our best to make sure Rengar becomes an awesome and healthy character!
Bola should of been a skillshot from day 1. Bola strikes aren't easy to hit you know. And all joking aside yes it should be a skillshot, buff the damage.

I don't want Rengar 1 shotting people anymore with barely any damage. Make his Q like 200% Bonus AD. And last but not least when will he be on PBE cause I honestly don't know a dam thing about Rengar besides the fact that he is annoying as hell to play against.


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Morzas

Senior Member

07-18-2013

One thing that's always annoyed me about Rengar is that his passive doesn't have any kind of internal cooldown. Seeing him leap onto a creep, then run to a bush and repeat over and over always seemed rather silly to me.