A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Reichsritters

Junior Member

07-17-2013

One of my biggest issues with the proposed changes to the ult is that unlike other initiation ultimates, such as TF's and nocturne's is that the warning is given to only those within range, already alerting specific champions to their danger. So say in one of the dev's examples, of ulting in river near the top of the map, that mid and top both get the big, "you gonna get killed" particle above their heads, just run back to their tower and wait out the ult. Other champions have a way, if they are positioned correctly before hand, to instantly initiate on someone, with little to no way to escape it. Rengar how ever has to physically run up there and jump on someone. It seems like too big a warning for such a slow skill. This is compounded by the fact that rengar has to physically walk there, whereas others can teleport or jump over terrain.

If you want rengar to become a sustained damage, one of the larger problems that face him is his lack of very good CC, without sacrificing a large portion of his damage. If the E wasnt a decaying slow, and instead a snare of some sorts, this would allow rengar to pin down an opponent and actually do sustained damage to them.


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Darklightning

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Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Pretty far - Rengar's vision range originates from his body, so it's impossible for him to ever activate it and exceed his own vision range. Currently, people only hear VO if they are within his champion sight radius (around 1k or so) when he activates the ultimate. If he activates the ultimate while he's 'on his way' the opponent won't hear his VO play - but would see the particle above their head once he reached the appropriate range.

I want him to kill people - Rengar's a damage dealer and that's what he does. I would just like him to kill people over 5 or 6 seconds than 1 to 2.

I want him to inspire fear into his opponents. I don't want him to inspire rage.
I don't like the idea that champions get a warning about their heads as he gets closer. If they are within his threat range at the beginning of the ultimate (where he can end up) then sure give them the icon, or better yet, just play the VO then and forget the icon. Keep in mind I typically play against him, so as an opponent I'm asking you to not make it ridiculously easy to know that he is likely hunting you (after all if all of the sudden I have an icon that says you could be killed I"ll guess he is coming my way.)

You can't inspire fear if he never succeeds in killing someone off. 5-6 seconds is more than enough time for the entire team to take you out. Also, it prevents you from taking out a fed carry. Even if you are in a strong place the carry will likely win because they always build lifesteal and can at least drag the fight out longer than 5-6 seconds resulting in the enemy team coming down on you. I've always accepted Rengar as the monster than jumps out of the darkness and takes out the squishy. Its a fun challenge trying to stop it, and the only thing that doesn't make it fun is when you don't know he is trying to do it. If you just play the VO so everyone knows he is on the hunt then top can TP to the guy that is out of position and the two can face off against him.


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GoProtoss

Member

07-17-2013

Rengar doesnt need any changes. He is an assassin. He does not need constant damage. The point of him is to sneak around and kill someone quickly. He is a HUNTER. And what is that junk about putting a little notification over the people near where he is ulting's head??? It completly kills all the fun in using his ultimate.


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Equinox MKD

Recruiter

07-17-2013

why would u ruin the q? the only dmg source? pls...


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Mobilized Boat

Member

07-17-2013

OnlyRengar is our Herald, he will save us all from Riot's damnation.


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Gujo

Junior Member

07-17-2013

Hey Scarizard!

I got a few questions for you .

-How do you define Rengar? as a Bruiser(Renekton, Garen) or as a Brawler(Vi, Xin, Jax)?

Why this question, to me it feels important to distinguish if he's a somewhat ad caster or a plain out AA reliant. It can help pinpoint some weakness we could remove of his kit and buff/nerf other parts.

You could debuff targets with Q (reduce armor per hit after a Q for x sec) and F-Q could give AttSp along with the debuff or just straight up do a max debuff right at the start.

His W could give a passive to help him in the jungle, like reduce enemies damage by x, or debuff their armor, etc.

His E is the most balance spell of his kit, straight forward CC with some damage attach to it. No need for change, maybe CC duration increase per lvl like his R-W heal.

I like your idea of his R giving a warning to people, like Nocturne does. Although I'd prefer if his "warning when ulting cry" be global, like Noctune, it gives this kind of "oh chit rengar ult, I better be careful" even tho an icon shows on top of you if he's nearby or not.

-How do you plan to help Rengar, jungle wise? Cause he was planned as a jungler at the start. Will he be a Top laner strictly with some weak jungle potential (exemple: Wukong, Darius) or will he be more suited as a Jungler?

I love the Bonetooth's idea with the machete and Iron sword. It could evolve into something even better. The potential of this idea is quite huge.

Thanks alot to show us your intentions and be mind-open on ideas and such. I really appreciate you guys for that as it forges a nice link between Rioters and players.

PS: I wanna be able to 1v1 a Khazix for that quest reward, keep it in mind .

Edit: Also concerning his Ult, can we make it activate regardless if he's stealth or not and keep it the whole duration, it sucks to try and fight a stealthy champ, you see them, jump of them and then they disapear cause ur Ult ended the moment you jump.


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GlavTech

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Scarizard, the Bonetooth idea would be good, but can you please make it so it's worth building BEFORE level ten? At this point, the item is only worth buying at specifically level ten, because then is the only point where it's more gold efficient then Pickaxe in terms of Gold > AD. I want access to it earlier then that without feeling like im wasting gold.


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

07-17-2013

If it was me I would remove the AA modifier on non-ferocity Q altogether. I never played Rengar for his burst and I always thought it was dumb. I think unleashing a ton of DPS from stealth is actually interesting, rather than just bursting someone down (think Nocturne) so I would keep or even buff the AS and leave the AA modifier for ferocity Q only.

I really don't like keeping his heal unchanged, but I don't like top lane Rengar as a whole. I feel like Rengar being allowed to survive top lane is always going to be too strong (assuming he could survive, I could be wrong). But lets say top lane Rengar is ok, it'd be more interesting if his ferocity W gave him a window where he trades exceptionally well, like if he got extra resists or blocks the next hit or something even more creative. Having these windows where your opponent doesn't want to trade with you, but you do is always has a ton more counter play than sustain and in my experience is fun for both parties.

I understand that counter play is nice, but I don't see why his ult needs a ton of counter play added to it. Its strictly weaker than a teleport that would accomplish the same thing. TF and Noct are allowed to have these and its deemed ok. I suppose people get "warnings" for TF and Noct except those are teleports and the warnings are basically irrelevant if they cast their teleport instantly. I would just leave it the same and reduce the duration or MS bonus for level 1 ult. Also it'd be really nice if the nerf to Rengar's ulting while taking damage was reverted. =) Just saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
We are not going to destroy his burst nor are we tuning him into a tanky bruiser.
I guess this means those of us who liked bruiser Rengar should drop him?


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Ozbirta

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
So there seems to be some confusion and misinterpretation with our intentions on Rengar.

From my 2nd post:

Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your squishy and die right after/I can only kill your squishy and am useless to my team if I fail."

We are not going to destroy his burst nor are we tuning him into a tanky bruiser. You will still be able to knife cat ambush people, but once again, the challenge for us is to make that pattern healthy, fun and balanced. This undoubtedly means we have to take some power away from his burst, whether its damage or execution speed. At the same time, we are also able to use the room created by this change to give him cooler effects that won't force Rengar into his current "if I fail to kill someone squishy on my first Leap from Ult, I am useless" and "suicide dive bomb/kamikaze" play pattern.

As a final thought, I would just like to stress this point again: burst damage on a long duration true stealth character with no counter play, no warning, and no window to react is not okay. It is not fun to play against, it is not healthy for our game and it completely warps the game for enemy players. This pattern's existence in its current form on Rengar's kit limits our ability to make this character healthy and that is why it has to go. With it gone we have the room to make him into the true predator and hunter who doesn't just jump in and die after taking down his prized prey.
It seems you are very very confused with what you are trying to say.
"Rengar will always have burst", followed by "We need to tone down Rengar's burst", followed by "you will still be able to "knifecat people" (which apparently doesn't have anything to do with burst)", followed by "we have to take away his burst". You start by saying you never want to make him a tanky champ/bruiser, and your final point is saying you don't want him to burst hard and die. So... what are you trying to say? The only direction I've sensed this is going through the entire discussion is that you are making him a tankier champ that chucks bolas, not killing anything, but stealthing in to slow and snare for the team. And that is not rengar. It's just not.

Stop saying there is no counterplay to the current rengar. Just stop. If there wasn't, he'd be in every lcs game. Higher level players use things such as pink wards and oracles, and their squishies huddle around them. I think you mean "At lower levels of play, there is no counterplay commonly being used to stop rengar", and it's sad that this is where the balance decision is hitting home from.


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Ashes Arise

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
So there seems to be some confusion and misinterpretation with our intentions on Rengar.

From my 2nd post:

Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your squishy and die right after/I can only kill your squishy and am useless to my team if I fail."

We are not going to destroy his burst nor are we tuning him into a tanky bruiser. You will still be able to knife cat ambush people, but once again, the challenge for us is to make that pattern healthy, fun and balanced. This undoubtedly means we have to take some power away from his burst, whether its damage or execution speed. At the same time, we are also able to use the room created by this change to give him cooler effects that won't force Rengar into his current "if I fail to kill someone squishy on my first Leap from Ult, I am useless" and "suicide dive bomb/kamikaze" play pattern.

As a final thought, I would just like to stress this point again: burst damage on a long duration true stealth character with no counter play, no warning, and no window to react is not okay. It is not fun to play against, it is not healthy for our game and it completely warps the game for enemy players. This pattern's existence in its current form on Rengar's kit limits our ability to make this character healthy and that is why it has to go. With it gone we have the room to make him into the true predator and hunter who doesn't just jump in and die after taking down his prized prey.
I'm sorry. I don't want to be "that guy", but you are just wrong. The changes will, as in 100% no doubt, change what he is into something akin to a bruiser/adcaster. Rengar is about taking advantage of opportunities that allies present. By taking away his upfront damage and spreading it out further makes Rengar pointless. There are plenty of champs that do this sort of thing many times better with kits that actually make sense for doing so. People will always be upset when they are assassinated. In every game with ranged squishies and assassins, people will always be upset. Everything needs a counter. Assassins are that answer. Unless you're willing to add something like BKB, it is truly unfair that champions like Rengar can be considered toxic.