A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Talohmiir

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Yeah will do brutha!


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Nielspeterdejong

Senior Member

01-17-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talohmiir View Post
Didn't look to see if anyone already posted this, but RiotScruffy took over the Rework and is going to post a new thread within a week. Check out the Why do we do reworks? thread to see it for yourself.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...1#post44473701
Alright, great!

To Riotscruffy, do you still have all the notes from Scarizard? Last time he posted he did mention that he was very passionate about making Rengar's ultimate fun and usefull. I hope this will be the same with your rework?

Also.. could you please unnerf empowered Roar? They alraedy removed the bonus Mr/Armor, and after the recent nerf his heal is useless.. :C Serieusly, his heal was what still made him viable since he doesn't have gap closers (except when you are in bushes.. whose number has been cut in half in summoners rift!) and all the previous nerfs. I don't think it's fair, there are a lot more champions out there who are much more rewarding for the same amount of effort you put into Rengar, and a lot more powerfull as well!

If you want to nerf it, why not 20 (+15/level), along with the 1% increase for every 1% health missing. That way it is still viable to use when you are low on health in combat, while right now people just use empowered Q because with a lifesteal item that has a much higher chance to save you now. Which is a shame, since I feel having a more viable empowered Roar (and Bola), would give him much more of a dynamic playstyle, and reward people for playing him right. And at higher health left it would not heal him too much.

Or give his empowered Roar a dodge chance/shield to him? And his Empowered Bola skillshot, why not give that the option to reactivate and pull the target to Rengar? After which the immobilization ends. This way Rengar players can decide to either keep him immobilized, or pull the target to him so that he doesn't have to jump right into a group and hope he can take out the carry before he gets slaughtered. Would such ideas be optional?


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ForMyNextTrick

Senior Member

01-17-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielspeterdejong View Post
Alright, great!
Or give his empowered Roar a dodge chance/shield to him? And his Empowered Bola skillshot, why not give that the option to reactivate and pull the target to Rengar? After which the immobilization ends. This way Rengar players can decide to either keep him immobilized, or pull the target to him so that he doesn't have to jump right into a group and hope he can take out the carry before he gets slaughtered. Would such ideas be optional?
Wow that sounds really cool, the only problem is that I'm pretty sure Riot will be making Rengar into an assassin and although your idea is really good it seems a bit to 'low risk, high reward'


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arwingflyer98

Recruiter

01-17-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cm WildFire View Post
Wow that sounds really cool, the only problem is that I'm pretty sure Riot will be making Rengar into an assassin and although your idea is really good it seems a bit to 'low risk, high reward'
To be honest, I thought Riot was turning Rengar into a complete bruiser. I actually prefer assassin Rengar, but the way his abilities looked on the summary didn't seem to statistically provide much burst damage. They seemed to match the sustained bits of damage that a bruiser would provide (especially with the Q-Train).


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Messaiga

Senior Member

01-17-2014

I love the ideas in the Original Post for Rengar, just one thing, what if his Bola Strike marked the target for a few seconds (providing sight on them) and allowed you to leap onto them (courtesy of his passive). Upon jumping to this target the mark is consumed. You could increase the cooldown in order to balance the amount of mobility this could provide. This could:

Allow for more initiation or harassment.
Be used to juke skills that may or may not cost you your life. Maybe increase the cooldown because of this, since constant gap closers (Outside of his bushes, which belong to him) would be just as annoying as Riven's Q + E for mobility.
Mobility in the jungle.
Finishing off targets who almost escaped.

My 2 cents.


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Whipblade

Junior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messaiga View Post
...what if his Bola Strike marked the target for a few seconds (providing sight on them) and allowed you to leap onto them (courtesy of his passive).\
Several people (Including Scarizard) have mentioned this idea. I think it's widely supported, but they have to see if they have the power budget for it.


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Th3 Hunter

Senior Member

01-18-2014

The rengar nerf was way too hard.

Why he was nerfed:
His damage potential - Ok for this issue, before I begin, I will admit that his damage BURST is incredible if not the highest in game. It is the reason I play him. It is one of the reasons anyone plays him. It is just like how every champions has its highlights and makes players want to play that certain champion e.g. Blitzcrank for his game deciding pulls, Jax for being the most powerful duelist in game.
However, Rengar's burst is completely dependent on his ferocity stacks. To maximize his damage, he NEEDS to have three ferocity stacks ready, otherwise he will lose almost any trade (barring the fact that he is fed comparatively to the other champions). Rengar's damage potential is also only high when either he is (assuming now he has his 3 stacks ready):
1.) Fed
2.) In a Bush
3.) In his ultimate

For the first issue
He is fed.
For the second issue
Ward. Predictable, this just comes down to game awareness.
For the third issue
In team fights, put down a pink ward. Now you can completely predict where he is coming for and crowd control him to death.

Rengar is limited to his burst potential. He is not a champion that wins trades in fight without it and he's not a champion that can execute his burst in every situation.

Now, Rengar as a champion:
There are three ways you can play Rengar: Assasin, Assasin/Tank, and just Tank.
Assassin Rengar - Squishy, EXTREMELY easy to kill, can almost always guarantee a kill on a single target.
Assasin/Tank - Can survive hits but target will most likely escape.
Tank - You're not killing anyone.

Now, Rengar's ONLY means of killing someone in team fights is either by using his Ultimate, jumping to them from a bush, walking to them or Flashing to them. Those are his ONLY means of gap closing.
In Terms of Team fighting:
Ultimate - This is Rengar's only gap closer in a team fight.
Jumping to them from a bush - Only if you're lucky.
Walking to them - You will die.
Flashing to them - Long cooldown, not reliable, the enemy sees you, disengages from you, now you are most likely useless.

I would like to now compare Rengar to other assasins.
Here's a list of assasins and their gap close:
Zed - ultimate (unstoppable), shadowstep
Fizz - Dash (unstoppable), trident hop thing (unstoppable)
Khazix - Jump, Ultimate
Akali - Three Dashes (unstoppable)
Evelyn - Sprint, she's invisible
Kassadin - Teleport
Katerina - Teleport
Leblanc - Dash
Master Yi - Invincible Dash
Shaco - Invisible teleport
Talon - Teleports behind target, Ultimate

Every single assasin has a gapcloser on a very short cooldown. That is the point of an assasin, to be able to get close to their target and do high damage. All assasins are able to do this in short sucessions because they have an ability that is shorter than 10 seconds that allows them to do it multiple times in a fight.
Rengar is the only assasin that if not in contact with a bush or ultimate ready, will be unable to get close to his target.
For this reason, most teams will not pick Rengar as the assasin of choice because of his heavy reliance on his ultimate.

People saw triple q as a threat because of its high burst damage. The thing with triple q is that it has a time window. If it is not done in a 4 second time window or before his ultimate fades, he will be unable to execute it. Meaning at times, it will fail. Yes, if the triple q does work, if target is squishy, they are most likely dead. The fact is that some people do not have high enough reaction time. It is not hard to disengage from Rengar as soon as he jumps on you. Regardless of how much damage Rengar will be doing, that should be the immediate reaction of an assasin jumping on you. Once that distance is made, Rengar is completely useless. No ultimate. No gap close.

The fact that triple q isn't possible anymore makes Rengar's damage as an assasin role horrible. He cannot guarantee kills on any target as his damage output is simply not high enough.

This nerf was way too hard on Rengar, if anything, just make triple q harder to execute, make q's activation a 5 second window instead. His damage output is just not high enough on top of the fact that he cannot gap close.


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Th3 Hunter

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messaiga View Post
I love the ideas in the Original Post for Rengar, just one thing, what if his Bola Strike marked the target for a few seconds (providing sight on them) and allowed you to leap onto them (courtesy of his passive). Upon jumping to this target the mark is consumed. You could increase the cooldown in order to balance the amount of mobility this could provide. This could:

Allow for more initiation or harassment.
Be used to juke skills that may or may not cost you your life. Maybe increase the cooldown because of this, since constant gap closers (Outside of his bushes, which belong to him) would be just as annoying as Riven's Q + E for mobility.
Mobility in the jungle.
Finishing off targets who almost escaped.

My 2 cents.
I think that ability would be awesome but I don't think that would match Rengar at all. He's not a magic user that can just teleport to a marked target, I've always seen Rengar as a hunter, slowing a target down, running to them and killing them. I honestly believed Rengar was fine as he was before.


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RakshirX

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Th3hunter View Post
The rengar nerf was way too hard.

Why he was nerfed:
His damage potential - Ok for this issue, before I begin, I will admit that his damage BURST is incredible if not the highest in game. It is the reason I play him. It is one of the reasons anyone plays him. It is just like how every champions has its highlights and makes players want to play that certain champion e.g. Blitzcrank for his game deciding pulls, Jax for being the most powerful duelist in game.
However, Rengar's burst is completely dependent on his ferocity stacks. To maximize his damage, he NEEDS to have three ferocity stacks ready, otherwise he will lose almost any trade (barring the fact that he is fed comparatively to the other champions). Rengar's damage potential is also only high when either he is (assuming now he has his 3 stacks ready):
1.) Fed
2.) In a Bush
3.) In his ultimate

For the first issue
He is fed.
For the second issue
Ward. Predictable, this just comes down to game awareness.
For the third issue
In team fights, put down a pink ward. Now you can completely predict where he is coming for and crowd control him to death.

Rengar is limited to his burst potential. He is not a champion that wins trades in fight without it and he's not a champion that can execute his burst in every situation.

Now, Rengar as a champion:
There are three ways you can play Rengar: Assasin, Assasin/Tank, and just Tank.
Assassin Rengar - Squishy, EXTREMELY easy to kill, can almost always guarantee a kill on a single target.
Assasin/Tank - Can survive hits but target will most likely escape.
Tank - You're not killing anyone.

Now, Rengar's ONLY means of killing someone in team fights is either by using his Ultimate, jumping to them from a bush, walking to them or Flashing to them. Those are his ONLY means of gap closing.
In Terms of Team fighting:
Ultimate - This is Rengar's only gap closer in a team fight.
Jumping to them from a bush - Only if you're lucky.
Walking to them - You will die.
Flashing to them - Long cooldown, not reliable, the enemy sees you, disengages from you, now you are most likely useless.

I would like to now compare Rengar to other assasins.
Here's a list of assasins and their gap close:
Zed - ultimate (unstoppable), shadowstep
Fizz - Dash (unstoppable), trident hop thing (unstoppable)
Khazix - Jump, Ultimate
Akali - Three Dashes (unstoppable)
Evelyn - Sprint, she's invisible
Kassadin - Teleport
Katerina - Teleport
Leblanc - Dash
Master Yi - Invincible Dash
Shaco - Invisible teleport
Talon - Teleports behind target, Ultimate

Every single assasin has a gapcloser on a very short cooldown. That is the point of an assasin, to be able to get close to their target and do high damage. All assasins are able to do this in short sucessions because they have an ability that is shorter than 10 seconds that allows them to do it multiple times in a fight.
Rengar is the only assasin that if not in contact with a bush or ultimate ready, will be unable to get close to his target.
For this reason, most teams will not pick Rengar as the assasin of choice because of his heavy reliance on his ultimate.

People saw triple q as a threat because of its high burst damage. The thing with triple q is that it has a time window. If it is not done in a 4 second time window or before his ultimate fades, he will be unable to execute it. Meaning at times, it will fail. Yes, if the triple q does work, if target is squishy, they are most likely dead. The fact is that some people do not have high enough reaction time. It is not hard to disengage from Rengar as soon as he jumps on you. Regardless of how much damage Rengar will be doing, that should be the immediate reaction of an assasin jumping on you. Once that distance is made, Rengar is completely useless. No ultimate. No gap close.

The fact that triple q isn't possible anymore makes Rengar's damage as an assasin role horrible. He cannot guarantee kills on any target as his damage output is simply not high enough.

This nerf was way too hard on Rengar, if anything, just make triple q harder to execute, make q's activation a 5 second window instead. His damage output is just not high enough on top of the fact that he cannot gap close.
Couldn't have said this better myself. Please post this here: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...197523&page=26

You need to get Scruffy's attention, since he is the one in charge of the rework now, and may not be looking at this thread at all.


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arwingflyer98

Recruiter

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Th3hunter View Post
I think that ability would be awesome but I don't think that would match Rengar at all. He's not a magic user that can just teleport to a marked target, I've always seen Rengar as a hunter, slowing a target down, running to them and killing them. I honestly believed Rengar was fine as he was before.
I don't think Rengar has to TELEPORT to said target, but rather jump to that target instead (with his passive). I think this is completely associated with Rengar's theme; kill the prey when you weaken it, right? Land the slow (aka the weakness) and then jump on it to ensure its death.