A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

09-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ars Caelum View Post
So is the final word that his E is now a skillshot, and his ultimate not only doesn't stealth anymore, but consumes his ferocity? So I guess triple Q is impossible now? And how exactly is he supposed to position in team fights? You're just going to get blown up when they see you "ulting" toward their carry.

Sorry if I come off as rude, but who even thought these changes were necessary to begin with? He's fine as he is now. Seriously, what?

No, really, what?

Ok you really haven't been paying attention.


1) Yes the ult will consumes his ferocity, but he still gains ferocity during his ult.

2) While you are ulting you get the movespeed, but pressing the ult again will turn you into stealth mode for X seconds (but you lose the MS speed bonus)

3) His cooldowns have decreased.

4) If you read his post, Rengar still has his burst abilites has he was able to one shot squishy and even went 1v1 against an Renekton.


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Ronambular

Member

09-04-2013

With the changes to the bone-tooth necklace, will there be any changes to the mini-quest "The Hunt Is On"?
Will the Rengar reward change for this at all, the reward being the fully stacked BTN. Or, will there be a different type of reward?


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

09-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronambular View Post
With the changes to the bone-tooth necklace, will there be any changes to the mini-quest "The Hunt Is On"?
Will the Rengar reward change for this at all, the reward being the fully stacked BTN. Or, will there be a different type of reward?

I don't see any reason why it should change from the fully stacked BTN


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Nielspeterdejong

Senior Member

09-05-2013

Hello Scarizard,

I can understand if most mechanics are already finished, but what about W2? I love the healing, but I always felt it annoying that the Armor/MR bonusses of W and W2 didn't stack. Will W2 get a shield instead of the Amor/MR buffs? So that it will make sence to both use W2 and W at the same time?


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UBR AwesomeBoss

Junior Member

09-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Sup dudes! Got back from PAX last night and busy playing catch-up this morning. Played Rengar today and have to say i'm pretty excited. End score was 10/4/16 iirc, with the lowest deaths and 2nd highest kills on my team.

(For those that care about anecdotes) - Laned vs Renekton. Maxed W since i got to lane later after helping a jungler out, which got him pushing vs me early. Used W2 to Sustain, but since all Ferocity bonuses are champion-level scaled atm, still got to reap the beenfits of high Armor/MR and pushing power as well as Q-Train (Although my extended all-ins were considerably weaker than if i had the +DMG/+AS% from Q levels).

Got the first kill of the lane vs him, then died getting outplayed (both of us were below 100 hp iirc) and so we basically conceded to farm. Felt fairly comfortable, used my Ult to roam and kill mid comfortably by Sprinting past his wards, then stealthing from a flank combo'd with my midlaner's CC.

Maxed Q 2nd, ended up doing enough damage with Q-Train and BOTRK as well as utilizing top brushes to chase down Renekton and 1v1 him.

Endgame build was Blade of the Ruined King, Mercury Treads, Frozen Mallet, Last Whisper, Bonetooth Necklace and a Kindlegem (With intent to Spirit Visage) - played a flexible peeler for my Carry by utilizing high Attack Speed with Frozen Mallet procs onto dudes like Nocturne and Renekton, but the most fun was using Thrill of the Hunt to run from a fight...only to double back around the brush i had exited (Since i had vision of the enemy team) and Stealth Ambush two mid-hp damage dealers that thought they had won the teamfight and wanted to push objectives.

Game ended in a Victory around the 30-35m mark.

Analysis outside of this game (as well as this game) seems to suggest that his Toplane is pretty strong vs a lot of melees, pending you use your W2 as a fallback should you be behind. (Remember! With Q-train, it's possible to Q, Q2, W, E, W2 all in a very short window, netting you great trade damage and the health swing from W2!)

He's scaling pretty well with gold, too - i posted about the insane stompy Xelnath game where he even went so far as to get Zerker Greaves and an IE and had over 400 AD and was one-shotting people. Endgame, anyone mid-hp was instantly dead to my Q2->Q->E->Q2->W Flurry, and was an appropriate threat to members of the enemy team.

Confidence level is pretty high atm that this can start going into Competitive testing, pending two things:

1. Code Review with Volty - this is something we do where Designers check eachothers' scripting to see edge/abuse cases that may be present, as well as those that may cause bugs. Essential to moving forward with QA Coverage so a champion is bug-free.

2. VFX/Smoothing on the Ultimate. Tl;dr here is that the Sprint/Stalk is working out really well in terms of the gameplay it's providing (Had some fail escapes, some sick jukes, some chase cleanups, some initiations and some stealth ganks) in that its truly flexible as an Ult if you premeditate it, but it's unclear currently in some playing against cases When or If i will stealth.

My confidence is still in the Re-cast version of the ult, but particle support when he attempts to 'fade', removing the built-in delay to re-cast but re-implementing fadetime-delay on damage taken as well as a few other things are on the table as potential necessary places to move to smooth out the pure feel of using this ult.

Just an update to let you guys know where things are at. We're pretty close to mechanics-locked at this point (meaning no drastic spell changes), but there is always room for tweaks and tuning across the board and i'm working closely with the team to figure out where any of it is necessary. If things continue as planned, i'd say i'm shooting for 3.13. 3.12 is unlikely, mostly due to the amount of time we'd need to account for bugfixing to ensure a safe patch release - but regardless of when it ships, it should be on PBE relatively soon for you guys to take a crack at.

Thanks for sticking with the thread and giving me a ton of feedback, good and bad. Can't wait for y'all to play it.
Changes look really good !
On another note, I have an idea for Rengar consuming his ferocity when he uses his ult, at 1 ferocity, the first empQ used after jumping will have a bonus effect, at 2 empW, at 3 empE, at 4 empR, and at 5, if he successfully kills an enemy champion after his ult, Rengar goes invisible for 1.5 seconds, but not granting him his passive, this allows him to escape after a fight, or choosing what's most important, damage (q), defence (w), utility (e) (r), or the 1.5 invisibility for escaping.


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Celestya

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Senior Member

09-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Sup dudes! Got back from PAX last night and busy playing catch-up this morning. Played Rengar today and have to say i'm pretty excited. End score was 10/4/16 iirc, with the lowest deaths and 2nd highest kills on my team.

(For those that care about anecdotes) - Laned vs Renekton. Maxed W since i got to lane later after helping a jungler out, which got him pushing vs me early. Used W2 to Sustain, but since all Ferocity bonuses are champion-level scaled atm, still got to reap the beenfits of high Armor/MR and pushing power as well as Q-Train (Although my extended all-ins were considerably weaker than if i had the +DMG/+AS% from Q levels).

Got the first kill of the lane vs him, then died getting outplayed (both of us were below 100 hp iirc) and so we basically conceded to farm. Felt fairly comfortable, used my Ult to roam and kill mid comfortably by Sprinting past his wards, then stealthing from a flank combo'd with my midlaner's CC.

Maxed Q 2nd, ended up doing enough damage with Q-Train and BOTRK as well as utilizing top brushes to chase down Renekton and 1v1 him.

Endgame build was Blade of the Ruined King, Mercury Treads, Frozen Mallet, Last Whisper, Bonetooth Necklace and a Kindlegem (With intent to Spirit Visage) - played a flexible peeler for my Carry by utilizing high Attack Speed with Frozen Mallet procs onto dudes like Nocturne and Renekton, but the most fun was using Thrill of the Hunt to run from a fight...only to double back around the brush i had exited (Since i had vision of the enemy team) and Stealth Ambush two mid-hp damage dealers that thought they had won the teamfight and wanted to push objectives.

Game ended in a Victory around the 30-35m mark.

Analysis outside of this game (as well as this game) seems to suggest that his Toplane is pretty strong vs a lot of melees, pending you use your W2 as a fallback should you be behind. (Remember! With Q-train, it's possible to Q, Q2, W, E, W2 all in a very short window, netting you great trade damage and the health swing from W2!)

He's scaling pretty well with gold, too - i posted about the insane stompy Xelnath game where he even went so far as to get Zerker Greaves and an IE and had over 400 AD and was one-shotting people. Endgame, anyone mid-hp was instantly dead to my Q2->Q->E->Q2->W Flurry, and was an appropriate threat to members of the enemy team.

Confidence level is pretty high atm that this can start going into Competitive testing, pending two things:

1. Code Review with Volty - this is something we do where Designers check eachothers' scripting to see edge/abuse cases that may be present, as well as those that may cause bugs. Essential to moving forward with QA Coverage so a champion is bug-free.

2. VFX/Smoothing on the Ultimate. Tl;dr here is that the Sprint/Stalk is working out really well in terms of the gameplay it's providing (Had some fail escapes, some sick jukes, some chase cleanups, some initiations and some stealth ganks) in that its truly flexible as an Ult if you premeditate it, but it's unclear currently in some playing against cases When or If i will stealth.

My confidence is still in the Re-cast version of the ult, but particle support when he attempts to 'fade', removing the built-in delay to re-cast but re-implementing fadetime-delay on damage taken as well as a few other things are on the table as potential necessary places to move to smooth out the pure feel of using this ult.

Just an update to let you guys know where things are at. We're pretty close to mechanics-locked at this point (meaning no drastic spell changes), but there is always room for tweaks and tuning across the board and i'm working closely with the team to figure out where any of it is necessary. If things continue as planned, i'd say i'm shooting for 3.13. 3.12 is unlikely, mostly due to the amount of time we'd need to account for bugfixing to ensure a safe patch release - but regardless of when it ships, it should be on PBE relatively soon for you guys to take a crack at.

Thanks for sticking with the thread and giving me a ton of feedback, good and bad. Can't wait for y'all to play it.
I'm scared of how you said at 400AD with an IE, he could only burst from mid-HP...that's REALLY fed. With that much damage it shouldn't take mid-HP targets, to die from a combo. Something sounds AWFULLY wrong there.


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Launchpad

Member

09-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Sup dudes! Got back from PAX last night and busy playing catch-up this morning. Played Rengar today and have to say i'm pretty excited. End score was 10/4/16 iirc, with the lowest deaths and 2nd highest kills on my team.

My confidence is still in the Re-cast version of the ult, but particle support when he attempts to 'fade', removing the built-in delay to re-cast but re-implementing fadetime-delay on damage taken as well as a few other things are on the table as potential necessary places to move to smooth out the pure feel of using this ult.
Just a personal preference please do not put the fadetime-delay on damage taken back in. It is the single most frustrating aspect of Rengar's current ult. There have been numerous fights when I would have chosen to stay and fight if I knew that I was just going to be seen anyways. Instead I use my ult and do 1 of 2 things.

1.) I turn to fight until I have officially become stealth but end up failing because I either enter stealth sooner than I realized and attacked thus ending my ult, or I don't do enough damage because I want to avoid wasting my ferocity generation by ending my ult too soon. (I know that there is a damage delay on twitch's stealth, but he does not have to worry about not receiving the benefits of ending stealth immediately. He gains his AS% regardless of how long he's been stealth.)

or

2.) I continue to try and run only to realize that I'll never actually enter stealth because of something small like Darius dot.

I say all this with the current ult in mind (obviously considering I haven't played with the new ult. So perhaps it wouldn't really matter to me that much as a Rengar player considering if I was trying to escape I'd probably just leave my ult in it's first form Hunt.

If you do decide to add the stealth delay upon taking damage back into Rengar please lower the amount of time that it can be delayed.


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Maxtras

Senior Member

09-05-2013

guys
are you seriously gonna buy bonetooth necklace?

Quote:
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g = 800g

Stats: 10 attack damage, 1 attack damage per level
Unique Passive: 20% increased damage to monsters.
Unique Passive: Kills and assists grant 1 Trophy. Deaths consume 1 Trophy. Neutral monsters may also have a chance to grant trophies.
3 Trophies - Rengar gains flat movement speed while out of combat or while in brush.
6 Trophies - Unseen Predator's range is increased by 100.
9 Trophies - Thrill of the Hunt's duration is increased by 5 seconds. May gain a second bonus.
14 Trophies - Rengar gains a % movement speed bonus for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush or using Unseen Predator.

Killing or assisting in killing Kha'Zix during the event, The Hunt is On!, causes this item to upgrade into the Head of Kha'Zix, which permanently grants the effects of all 14 trophies.
that item is not worthy at all in my opinion
i could get another bloodthirster instead this item....

i wont give even 10 gold for this item


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

09-05-2013
65 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestya View Post
I'm scared of how you said at 400AD with an IE, he could only burst from mid-HP...that's REALLY fed. With that much damage it shouldn't take mid-HP targets, to die from a combo. Something sounds AWFULLY wrong there.
Quick Clarification, I was referring to -my- game as the one that anyone mid-hp was dying, while in Xelnath's he was one-shotting people. TIL Sentence Structure. Gonna edit that to make it more clear.


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Smoke DZA

Senior Member

09-05-2013

When will he be available to the public to test?

Also do you guys plan on reworking him and Kha'Zix's interaction?